(03-02-2017, 03:22 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2017, 12:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Hey New Guy,
You do have a point about Juliette and Nick living in sin. But that is contingent upon one or both of them being brought up in a belief that it is a sin to live together. Neither of them seems to belong to any denomination. In fact, Nick poked a bit of fun at the tent revival episode. So, for the purposes of this discussion, they could live together and Juliette was indeed right to put honesty as a condition of their marriage.
Hi Iruk,
Thanks for your reply.
The word sin has religious connotation. Fornication violates moral codes of conduct for several religions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_sexuality
The biological and societal consequences. For example if King Frederick and Elizabeth Lascelles, were husband and wife would Sean Renard behave as he does? Consider Diana and how she longs to have Mommy and Daddy in love and growing up in a family.
Some say "it takes a village" yet the research continues to find significant benefits for children raised in a family:
http://www.clasp.org/resources-and-publi...s/0086.pdf
The bottom line IMO, if Juliette did not want to marry Nick, she should not be his FWB nor should he have been hers.
N G
Hello New Guy-
I think Diana's problems stem much deeper than the lack of a cohesive family.
As for Juliette and Nick, they do not appear to be even poorly versed in the spiritual. I have to digress here for a minute, because for Nick, I find that a strange contradiction with all he's encountered.
But back to basics. Both Nick and Juliette worked in professions that don't allow a lot of room for spiritual enlightenment. No doubt Juliette has encountered surgery situations where everything went right and the patient died anyway, leaving her to deal with a broken hearted family.
Nick, on the other hand, would have seen the worst of the human element, giving him pause to no doubt wonder why he just doesn't stick a gun up to his forehead and call it quits.
It's interesting to me that you would term them friends with benefits. While I have never seen them as passionate lovers, I do see a very deep friendship between them. I always wondered why they never built from that foundation. Anyway, if there were benefits for them, more power to them.
My real issue is with the brains who decided Juliette needed a complete overhaul.
New Guy as usual I am pointing out the results that religon has been used to justify. You twist I am saying it is so meting you said. What I am critiquing you for is you use religion as a moral authority. But you object when immoral acts acts in the name of religion are pointed out.
There are churches that do premote ideas that other churches find contradiction to the teaching. The difference is they don't use their ideology to condem. The are into the teaching of peace and harmony.
You are like a lot of religious zealots because you have a religious connection of different deminominations you must be tollarent. That is like say I am not a raciest because some of my best finds are blak. Or I am not homophobic because I have a relative that is guy.
FYI we may have had a black presedent. But racism is still as prevalent as it always has been. The fact that you invoke MLK proves that point
(03-02-2017, 05:19 PM)speakeasy Wrote: [ -> ]New Guy, I am an agnostic. Your beliefs are yours, but they have no place in my world view. Imo only, you're silly and you create irrelevant posts.
Hi Speakeasy,
I present the facts and draw logical conclusions. I believe in justice. I believe in free speech, and freedom of religion.
You again failed to point to what was silly in my post and what was irrelevant.
It seems your "world view" is contrived in your own little world. I will close with this:
Quote:We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Thomas Jefferson
I believe that Mr. Jefferson spoke the truth. And yes Speakeasy, you also have these "Rights" that came from our "Creator." You can say whatever, but nothing will dissuade me from my conviction.
Peace be with you,
N G
New Guy you do know when Jefferson wrote those words he owned slaves and women had no rights. If all men are created equal. Why did the constitution use to define negros as two thirds of a man. All men are created equal then why where native Americans subjected to genocide.
NG, you're cherry picking parts of the bible when it's convenient to support whatever point you're trying to make. There are a lot of not so good things in the good book. You can believe what you want but you're using the same points over and over like they can't be questioned.
For example, you say that Nick and Juliette were living in sin. They were together for years before season 1 and were committed to one another. What exactly were they doing that was so wrong? They didn't abuse each other, supported each other, and contributed to society. They weren't FWB. They were a couple who were committed to one another and lived together for years. People judging them because they weren't married makes no sense. They weren't tied together by some ring and they weren't going to abandon each other. Marriage doesn't prevent people from breaking up, especially considering that they didn't have any children.
And to piggyback off of Syscrash, those statements were made by a man who owned slaves. Jefferson was no paragon of virtue and I'm certain you could eviscerate him if you checked into him using your own arguments.
(03-02-2017, 09:01 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]. They weren't tied together by some ring and they weren't going to abandon each other.
Sometimes when people are living together and they realize they are not moving in the direction of marriage or long - term commitment they break up. That is why we reviewed how she turned down Nick's proposal to see what Juliette's view of these issues were. IMO if Nick never opened up to her about wesen it seems like they would have broken up if Juliette was not killed.
(03-02-2017, 10:35 PM)MarylikesGrimm Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2017, 09:01 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]. They weren't tied together by some ring and they weren't going to abandon each other.
Sometimes when people are living together and they realize they are not moving in the direction of marriage or long - term commitment they break up. That is why we reviewed how she turned down Nick's proposal to see what Juliette's view of these issues were. IMO if Nick never opened up to her about wesen it seems like they would have broken up if Juliette was not killed.
I agree about them breaking up if Nick hadn't told her the truth. I don't see why marriage would stop them from doing so. That would only mean they're more committed to the marriage than to each other. The same exact issues would arise.
I also didn't get the impression that they weren't moving in the direction of long-term commitment since Juliette gave no inkling of leaving. Nick was afraid of her leaving but that was when she told him she was going to learn how to use a gun. Juliette being with Nick was probably the primary reason for her doing it so that tells me she wasn't planning on going anywhere any time soon.
In season 4, Nick and Juliette showed no signs of breaking up until she suffered the side effects of Nick getting his Grimm back. It was a very extreme situation that led to them breaking up. Had that not happened, they may have done so eventually but it wasn't going to happen anytime soon and neither one would've cheated on the other.
NG was talking about them living in sin which is why I talked about them being together before the series timeline. Obviously, Nick keeping what the real world is actually like from Juliette was a big obstacle but that wasn't a problem until Nick saw Adalind on the street and Aunt Marie came to town. They were together for years before that and shouldn't feel ashamed for not getting married even though Nick bought the ring in the pilot. NG was strongly inferring that they either should've been married at the start of the series since they were living together and fornicating, God forbid! Or they shouldn't have been together at all. Marriage was the be-all, end-all for him and anything less was sinful and classified them as FWB.
(03-01-2017, 06:38 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't agree that Juliette has had any injustice, but everyone will see this differently from their point of view. I would define an injustice is the way Sean and her mother handled Adalind losing her powers to Nick.
IMO Juliette never had a similar experience as that, she chose to help Nick get his Grimm. She chose how to deal with the hexenbiest experience. She left Nick, now we can say Nick didn't handle the news well at the start, he didn't leave her she left him.
Just my 2 cents.
I would like to disagree with you. Forget about Adalind for a second, If you see any other main characters in the grimm, did anyone lost their true essence completely? the answer is no(they rather made Adalind look more softer, who seems to have helping nature LoL). Adalind knows that she is on the wrong side and if she was a good person, she definitely had a choice. Either she could have left the country or she could self sacrificed by allowing Sean and her mother kill her. But she chose the wrong side and decided to do bad things to Hank, Nick and Juliette (Adalind did use Juliette's friendly nature in many cases to hurt Nick).
Juliette have had many worst experiences. Starting from cat scratch to becoming Hexabiest. And as you said she did have a choice not to help Nick knowing side effects will be there. But she chose to sacrifice herself to get Nick his grimm powers back. After she became Hexabiest, she gets the blame that she did many bad things and betrayed Nick. She wasnt born Hexabiest (If she was she would definetly have learned to control). All bad power came to her all at once and it dominated her true self which lead to do bad things. No one including Nick understood this and started blaming Juliette for his loss. what about the person who is root cause of this problem (if Adalind wouldnt have take Nick powers, none of this would have happend)? she gets to live a happy family life which Juliette desrved. I defintely call this whole thing as an injustice.
Evil power comes with great pain
(03-03-2017, 01:16 AM)bj123 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-01-2017, 06:38 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't agree that Juliette has had any injustice, but everyone will see this differently from their point of view. I would define an injustice is the way Sean and her mother handled Adalind losing her powers to Nick.
IMO Juliette never had a similar experience as that, she chose to help Nick get his Grimm. She chose how to deal with the hexenbiest experience. She left Nick, now we can say Nick didn't handle the news well at the start, he didn't leave her she left him.
Just my 2 cents.
I would like to disagree with you. Forget about Adalind for a second, If you see any other main characters in the grimm, did anyone lost their true essence completely? the answer is no(they rather made Adalind look more softer, who seems to have helping nature LoL). Adalind knows that she is on the wrong side and if she was a good person, she definitely had a choice. Either she could have left the country or she could self sacrificed by allowing Sean and her mother kill her. But she chose the wrong side and decided to do bad things to Hank, Nick and Juliette (Adalind did use Juliette's friendly nature in many cases to hurt Nick).
Juliette have had many worst experiences. Starting from cat scratch to becoming Hexabiest. And as you said she did have a choice not to help Nick knowing side effects will be there. But she chose to sacrifice herself to get Nick his grimm powers back. After she became Hexabiest, she gets the blame that she did many bad things and betrayed Nick. She wasnt born Hexabiest (If she was she would definetly have learned to control). All bad power came to her all at once and it dominated her true self which lead to do bad things. No one including Nick understood this and started blaming Juliette for his loss. what about the person who is root cause of this problem (if Adalind wouldnt have take Nick powers, none of this would have happend)? she gets to live a happy family life which Juliette desrved. I defintely call this whole thing as an injustice.
Evil power comes with great pain
What are you on about? Sean, Adalind and her mother were on the same side. They shunned and abandoned her when she became "useless" after Nick killed her hexenbiest. Adalind did all those bad things at Sean's command, so why should she sacrifice herself at that stage and her handlers get to walk away unscathed (except Catherine does eventually die)?
The cat scratch was 100% her doing and for that I agree she should have paid for that.