The subject of Nick's love interest at the end has been debated a great deal on this site. IMHO, this is the one thing that should have ended with a question mark. Both Juliette and Adalind changed radically over time. I sympathize more with Juliette because she didn't have the luxury of choosing to change and Adalind did. Both did terrible things. Both regretted the things they had done. Nick's choice of which one should better have been left to our imaginations.
In any event, I do miss the show terribly and hope someday there will be a spinoff.
(04-27-2017, 08:39 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.
rpmaluki, there's making a mistake, and then there's non-consensual rape, attempted murder, and drugging. This isn't "carrying a grudge," this is remembering the past so it doesn't happen again.
If the writers wanted to redeem Adalind, fine. There's a dozen different ways they could have gone about doing that without forcing a romance between herself and Nick. But by having Nick an Adalind fall in love, they're basically saying rape is an acceptable (if not
preferable) option for building a sturdy relationship. If the genders had been flipped, with a male Adalind violating a female version of Nick, you wouldn't even try to defend it.
That's why I find your stance deeply offensive.
I'm sure if you were a German extolling the unsung virtues of the Nazi regime and a Jewish man happened to nervously mention Auschwitz and Dachau, you'd roll your eyes and say "For crying out loud, let it go already!"
(04-27-2017, 11:05 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ] (04-27-2017, 08:39 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.
rpmaluki, there's making a mistake, and then there's non-consensual rape, attempted murder, and drugging. This isn't "carrying a grudge," this is remembering the past so it doesn't happen again.
If the writers wanted to redeem Adalind, fine. There's a dozen different ways they could have gone about doing that without forcing a romance between herself and Nick. But by having Nick an Adalind fall in love, they're basically saying rape is an acceptable (if not preferable) option for building a sturdy relationship. If the genders had been flipped, with a male Adalind violating a female version of Nick, you wouldn't even try to defend it. That's why I find your stance deeply offensive.
I'm sure if you were a German extolling the unsung virtues of the Nazi regime and a Jewish man happened to nervously mention Auschwitz and Dachau, you'd roll your eyes and say "For crying out loud, let it go already!"
Are you seriously trying to use the Holocaust to vilify another poster over a fictional tv series?
(04-27-2017, 11:05 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: [ -> ] (04-27-2017, 08:39 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.
rpmaluki, there's making a mistake, and then there's non-consensual rape, attempted murder, and drugging. This isn't "carrying a grudge," this is remembering the past so it doesn't happen again.
If the writers wanted to redeem Adalind, fine. There's a dozen different ways they could have gone about doing that without forcing a romance between herself and Nick. But by having Nick an Adalind fall in love, they're basically saying rape is an acceptable (if not preferable) option for building a sturdy relationship. If the genders had been flipped, with a male Adalind violating a female version of Nick, you wouldn't even try to defend it. That's why I find your stance deeply offensive.
I'm sure if you were a German extolling the unsung virtues of the Nazi regime and a Jewish man happened to nervously mention Auschwitz and Dachau, you'd roll your eyes and say "For crying out loud, let it go already!"
I was asking general questions about the nature of
people changing and how they are (to be) received by people around them.
To the underlined part, I certainly hope not. I'm not lauding, pushing or condoning what happened on this show. The morality of the show leaves much to be desired but I don't think it encouraged any of the the behaviours we saw done by the characters. I have never attempted to belittle these character's actions, I simply chose to accept the willingness of the characters to make better choices once they realised their old way of living erroneous I try to limit my comments to the show itself and tend to leave my personal views and beliefs out of it or else I'd find no show good enough to watch.
I don't know what in my comments has you comparing me to a "Nazi" German who's ignorant of the mass murdering and oppression of others. I'm black and a South African who knows and understands very well systematic oppression that dehumanises people to the point where animals are seen as a higher form in comparison that still continues even today just two decades after we got our "freedom", and therefore I take offense in you comment about my supposed character because I chose to hope that people can change if they want to badly enough.
But then again how can Nick choice Adalind?!? I mean Adalind of all the women outside in the world. That's I can't understand. Even after all the things, she did to all his friends - to him himself and Juliette.
That's a slap into the Nickliette faces - it would be better if they would have let it open and we could have make our own imagination who did he choice...
(04-27-2017, 01:28 PM)Juliette Wrote: [ -> ]That's a slap into the Nickliette faces - it would be better if they would have let it open and we could have make our own imagination who did he choice...
I'm on the opposite side of this mainly because I don't like open-ended solutions. I don't want to use my imagination at the end of a series like I would during it for things such as mysteries that need to be peeled back over the course of a season. I want to see the people telling the story end the story regardless of whether I like it or not. I think doing otherwise is a cowardly way of writing and it suggests to me that the writers don't know how to end the story.
There's nothing more frustrating than not knowing how things truly end when the curtain closes on a show. Most shows end on cliffhangers because they assume they'll get a renewal only to get a shock and never come back. The Grimm writers knew it was the end with S6 so they had time to write what they deem was a satisfying end, tying as many loose ends as they were capable of. I personally am glad the ending was conclusive even though it wasn't put together in the best possible way. I would have hated wondering about these characters insistently because I didn't have answers. I prefer to know even if it means the possibility of hating the ending. If I hate the ending, I can make a clean break.
(04-27-2017, 08:39 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Adalind as a character has gone through a transformation that didn't happen overnight. The process from the very bad girl introduced in S1 to the relatively good and maybe even overtly friendly Adalind of S6 was a long, painful and arduous journey for her. In S5, she made the decision to be different to what she used to be for Kelly's sake. As much as she was angry over Diana's kidnapping, she later took responsibility, attributing it to her own behavior and actions leading up to it. I do think that Nadalind as a pairing may be inflating some perception of the character at the end causing people to claim things that honestly didn't happen on the show. I understand people not liking her or liking her with Nick but saying she did things for reasons that weren't shown/revealed on the show is just a reach too far for me.
With regards to whether or not she's changed, I think she's moving in the right direction. I don't think she's completely rid of her worst traits because that's a lifetime of conditioning that she'd need to work continually to correct but she's now surrounded by people who truly love and care for her enough to make such an attempt worthwhile. I saw a deleted scene between her and Rosalee where she asks if it's possible to change and like Rosalee, I believe it's possible if a person wants it badly enough and I believe Adalind definitely wants to change for the better.
Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.
Wow, we clearly saw two different shows. But discussing the difference in interpretation is what makes this forum so worthwhile.
I'll agree that Adalind has moved, at least temporarily in the right direction, but rather than being the show about redemption so many once claimed, Grimm ends up proving a leopard cannot ultimately change its spots. Adalind moves in the right direction from being the town whore to simply a live in snuggle bunny raising a bastard for a son with a man she raped. And she also totally fails her daughter. Her child grows to be something even more insidious than her mother, apparently a serial killer, one actually encouraged by her so called changed mother. Bravo.
If anything what Grimm teaches us, is changes in character are only possible if you totally cut your ties to the past. Monroe's rehabilitation was almost permanent and then he met Nick who ending up sullying his attempt to walk the path of the straight and narrow. If Nick had not entered his life, Monroe may have been successful in walking away from the wesen community and living a clean life, instead he is sullied and dragged into the filth and mire of the bowels of the wesen world by his association with Nick.
If Adalind was to be successful in her alleged transformation she would have need to cut all ties to her past. She didn't. And we got to see the future. Her son and daughter are serial killers. Yippee, bravo, great job. Adalind managed to take a Hexenbeist, who apparently have a great deal of latitude in character, and made a serial killer out of her. Great parenting there. At least they did not show Diana knocked up with two different baby daddies in tow: They were probably outside, in the car, in the hot sun while she ran inside the trailer.
Sorry I am just not seeing any great transformation here. She has simply cloaked her dysfunctional character under a thin veneer of respectability. Adalind is weak willed, She is surrounding herself with people of disrepute. She is living with a serial killer instead of fleeing like a decent women would do and get her children the furry kittens away from the murdering fathers of her bastard and her illegitimate daughter. I think her future is pretty clear and it is not a cause for celebration.
(04-27-2017, 02:11 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ] (04-27-2017, 08:39 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Adalind as a character has gone through a transformation that didn't happen overnight. The process from the very bad girl introduced in S1 to the relatively good and maybe even overtly friendly Adalind of S6 was a long, painful and arduous journey for her. In S5, she made the decision to be different to what she used to be for Kelly's sake. As much as she was angry over Diana's kidnapping, she later took responsibility, attributing it to her own behavior and actions leading up to it. I do think that Nadalind as a pairing may be inflating some perception of the character at the end causing people to claim things that honestly didn't happen on the show. I understand people not liking her or liking her with Nick but saying she did things for reasons that weren't shown/revealed on the show is just a reach too far for me.
With regards to whether or not she's changed, I think she's moving in the right direction. I don't think she's completely rid of her worst traits because that's a lifetime of conditioning that she'd need to work continually to correct but she's now surrounded by people who truly love and care for her enough to make such an attempt worthwhile. I saw a deleted scene between her and Rosalee where she asks if it's possible to change and like Rosalee, I believe it's possible if a person wants it badly enough and I believe Adalind definitely wants to change for the better.
Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.
Wow, we clearly saw two different shows. But discussing the difference in interpretation is what makes this forum so worthwhile.
I'll agree that Adalind has moved, at least temporarily in the right direction, but rather than being the show about redemption so many once claimed, Grimm ends up proving a leopard cannot ultimately change its spots. Adalind moves in the right direction from being the town whore to simply a live in snuggle bunny raising a bastard for a son with a man she raped. And she also totally fails her daughter. Her child grows to be something even more insidious than her mother, apparently a serial killer, one actually encouraged by her so called changed mother. Bravo.
If anything what Grimm teaches us, is changes in character are only possible if you totally cut your ties to the past. Monro's rehabilitation was almost permanent and then he met Nick who ending up sullying his attempt to walk the path of the straight and narrow. If Nick had not entered his life, Monroe may have been successful in walking away from the wesen community and living a clean life, instead he is sullied and dragged into the filth and mire of the bowels of the wesen world by his association with Nick.
If Adalind was to be successful in her alleged transformation she would have need to cut all ties to her past. She didn't. And we got to see the future. Her son and daughter are serial killers. Yippee, bravo, great job. Adalind managed to take a Hexenbeist, who apparently have a great deal of latitude in character, and made a serial killer out of her. Great parenting there. At least they did not show Diana knocked up with two different baby daddies in tow: They were probably outside, in the car, in the hot sun while she ran inside the trailer.
Sorry I am just not seeing any great transformation here. She has simply cloaked her dysfunctional character under a thin veneer of respectability. Adalind is weak willed, She is surrounding herself with people of disrepute. She is living with a serial killer instead of fleeing like a decent women would do and get her children the furry kittens away from the murdering fathers of her bastard and her illegitimate daughter.
I can understand that.To you, she's swapping one terrible situation for a horrible one, making little to no difference in her life. I get it and that’s due to you not seeing anything good or worthwhile in the character of Nick so anyone who associates with him only degenerates as a consequence. I don't see Nick in quite as extreme view as you do but I have compartmentalised much of this show and the characters and I guess that means taking them at face value up to a certain point. Personally, I do think Grimms are serial killers, including Nick but that's my real world view but with the Grimm universe, I'm a bit more forgiving, of not just Grimms but wesen and kehrseite alike but only to a certain point. I do think Adalind is trying to be better and unfortunately to some viewers, that's not possible.