Grimm Forum

(04-26-2017, 03:45 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]It doesn't take much to envision an irrational woman being jealous of the grimm's girlfriend, especially when the girlfriend appears to love him very much.

Wow, that comment surprised me. I still think the Juliette was slumming theory explains in part their relationship. But another part that seems to fit to me is this. Juliette is a veterinarian, she has a soft spot for warm, fuzzy, dumb animals. She likes to repair broken things. She is out one night and meets Nick. He tells her his story, in short order she comes to realize he is essentially all alone he does not have friends he hangs out with, other cops may like him but they don't socialize with him as cops usually do, his best friend is his partner who had been married several times, meaning Hank and Nick never really hung out together, the guy is an orphan, raised by his Aunt...given all that, I am not so sure Juliette had a romantic love with Nick so much as he punched every empathy, mothering, nurturing instinct she had. That happens often to women, they mistake the nurturing mother instinct they feel toward some guy (he needs me) for love. Only to wake up in bed next to him one day and realize he is not much of a man and very much the little boy.

(04-26-2017, 07:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-26-2017, 06:47 PM)Tara Wrote: [ -> ]It seems like, as if Adalind is the innocent lamb. But she is not, not at all.

Where is this coming from? I've seen you say this several times now. I would like to know the context of this statement.

Recently, we've been discussing if Adalind either hated Juliette or was jealous of her in the early seasons. I said Adalind neither hated nor was she jealous of Juliette. Adalind targeted her because she was Nick's girlfriend and it was the most effective way to hurt Nick but not because she was envious of her or wanted Nick for herself.

There's no sign of painting Adalind as the "innocent lamb" in any of those statements. In fact, it makes Adalind look worse for hurting an innocent party to hurt Nick.

Have you seen anyone here say Adalind didn't do those things? Has anyone said Juliette deserved to be victimized by Adalind because she was Nick's girlfriend? Adalind's villainy from the early seasons has not been denied by anyone.

They want to equate who Adalind is now with who she was then. As if saying, since she was once this dark character, she can never step into the light. If Nick and Adalind's relationship hadn't become a counterpoint to the dissolution of Nick and Juliette, they wouldn't care what sort of person Adalind was at the end. Accepting the notion that Adalind is a good person now or worthy of redemption, would make it more difficult to constantly rail against her. Maybe because I come from the other side of that fence, I can't fully understand it. But I've always liked Juliette/Eve, and I feel no desire to tear her down. I've also never seen it as a competition. In those first four years, I was completely behind Nick and Juliette. The tragedy that befell her, hit hard. So when we found out she was alive, I was overjoyed. Since her return however, I've wanted different things for her. And more than anything, in the end, I just wanted all the characters to be in a place that was right for them. I'm fond of each and every one of them. And I can tell you, getting back together wouldn't have been good for Nick and Juliette. They're not even remotely in the same emotional space anymore. Nick and Adalind need each other for a host of reasons, so this is the correct thing for them. But Adalind's old sins will continue to be unearthed and paraded around, as a means of trying to prove some illusive point. Like a jealous ex-girlfriend, embittered by a former lover's happiness. In search of some alternate history that lines up with their jaundiced view of things, regardless of the writer's intention or the facts presented on screen.

I do think the fact Nick and Adalind ended up together is playing a big part in this debate. It's making some people go back to Adalind's earlier actions and retroactively paint them in a way that suggests she was trying to get Juliette out of the way because of jealousy or to eventually get Nick for herself.

Adalind clearly went after Juliette to get revenge on him for "killing her". She wanted to emotionally devastate him. It was all about that and Juliette was just a casualty in her vendetta against Nick.

The Biest fight that happened in season 4 was about Adalind trying to get Juliette to give her the means to recover Diana. This wasn't out of jealousy either. Juliette didn't have anything Adalind wanted except a possible way to get Diana back.

(04-26-2017, 08:37 PM)Mrtrick Wrote: [ -> ]They want to equate who Adalind is now with who she was then. As if saying, since she was once this dark character, she can never step into the light. If Nick and Adalind's relationship hadn't become a counterpoint to the dissolution of Nick and Juliette, they wouldn't care what sort of person Adalind was at the end. Accepting the notion that Adalind is a good person now or worthy of redemption, would make it more difficult to constantly rail against her. Maybe because I come from the other side of that fence, I can't fully understand it. But I've always liked Juliette/Eve, and I feel no desire to tear her down. I've also never seen it as a competition. In those first four years, I was completely behind Nick and Juliette. The tragedy that befell her, hit hard. So when we found out she was alive, I was overjoyed. Since her return however, I've wanted different things for her. And more than anything, in the end, I just wanted all the characters to be in a place that was right for them. I'm fond of each and every one of them. And I can tell you, getting back together wouldn't have been good for Nick and Juliette. They're not even remotely in the same emotional space anymore. Nick and Adalind need each other for a host of reasons, so this is the correct thing for them. But Adalind's old sins will continue to be unearthed and paraded around, as a means of trying to prove some illusive point. Like a jealous ex-girlfriend, embittered by a former lover's happiness. In search of some alternate history that lines up with their jaundiced view of things, regardless of the writer's intention or the facts presented on screen.

Well, you can always tell the ultimate intended insult when people are reduced from people to pronouns, such as "they". I can also tell it really rankles you because you somehow seem to see Adalind as the person who can do no wrong. She's just a victim of her circumstances, laa tee dah, laa tee dah.

I can also tell you that you couldn't be more wrong. No one's trying to rewrite the story. You know that. You're just annoyed because in your mind, Adalind should never be talked about in such tones. Now, if we were talking about Juliette in this manner, I can tell you, you wouldn't even be part of the conversation. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong.

You seem to live in this rose colored haze about Adalind. You know, you've already tried some pathetic lines to show just how really wonderful underneath it all her character was in the beginning:

"well yeah, she was irrational but she's perfectly fine now"
"well yeah, she attempted murder but that really wasn't her fault, Renard instigated it"
"well yeah, she hurt Juliette, but she was really trying to get at Nick"
"well yeah, she took Nick's grimm away and Juliette became a hexenbiest but she was only trying to get her baby back"
"well yeah, Marie's dead and she's responsible, but she never meant to harm anyone"

You do see how tedious your arguments (which are really excuses) become after a while.

Besides that, all we were talking about was Adalind's view of Juliette.
I mean, you can throw out the argument that we're re-writing the story, but that's your (again completely inaccurate and wrong) opinion.

You were the one who said Adalind was not rational. Yet she can't go after Juliette for irrational reasons. Instead you plaud her as this rational person who goes after Juliette to get at Nick. It's all revenge.

But then we have Renard. I don't see any revenge toward him. Yeah, she went with the royals. Big deal. He didn't like it, I'm sure, but it didn't slow him down any. He dumped her because she lost her powers. That's a big insult to a woman. One that should surely spur her to some ultimate revenge. Yet, what does she do? Not a thing.

I think she went after Juliette for more than an impersonal intent. I think her irrational mind rationalized that hatred of Juliette was a good thing. I don't see Adalind as the logical stone cold killer. I haven't seen any cogent arguments from you to convince me (or anyone who holds the viewpoint contrary to your own) otherwise.

I'm really surprised that you haven't used the argument that her hexenbiest made her do it.

And if you're up to it, answer these questions:

Was going after Juliette a smart move on Adalind's part? If so, why?

(04-27-2017, 04:58 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]"well yeah, she was irrational but she's perfectly fine now"
"well yeah, she attempted murder but that really wasn't her fault, Renard instigated it"
"well yeah, she hurt Juliette, but she was really trying to get at Nick"
"well yeah, she took Nick's grimm away and Juliette became a hexenbiest but she was only trying to get her baby back"
"well yeah, Marie's dead and she's responsible, but she never meant to harm anyone"

You do see how tedious your arguments (which are really excuses) become after a while.

Welcome to my world. I hear these kind of justifications about Adalind's little sexual excursion with Nick all the time. Mrtrick also likes to rationalize the entire Eve arc (which is basically about a woman refusing to admit she was an accomplice to murder) in the same way. Excuses can be provided for any action on the show, no matter how odious or reprehensible.

Both Juliette and Adalind underwent immense characterological changes over the course of the time we fans knew them. Both cases had what I would call healthy psychological outcomes. In other words, both faced their sins and made choices to improve. In my view, Adalind did so because of the children and Juliette, on a higher plane, I think, because she saw the meaning of her life. For me, that was the main theme of a description of the what we call character development in both of these women.

From the point of view of this fan, I just didn't see any historical evidence of a personal hatred Adalind had for Juliette.

The obsession spell between Juliette and Sean was Adalind's payback to Sean. It's not like he didn't receive any of her ire after losing her powers.

---

She went after Juliette as a means to hurt Nick, the only way available to her without her powers. Her reasoning was that Nick took something valuable to her and she wanted to do the same in the form of his taking away his girlfriend. In Season 3, taking away Nick's powers was only possible because she'd already lost her powers and her reasoning behind that was as means to get to Diana, according to Viktor. Adalind did many terrible things but her reasons were made clear on the show. I don't think she did any of the above because she specifically hated Juliette, in S1 she didn't know Juliette well enough to care about her. All her anger was towards Nick/Sean and Juliette was her tool to hurt them both. Nick almost lost Juliette because she couldn't remember him And Sean could have ended up dead if Juliette had shot him at the height of their obsession.

In S3 she was so bent on getting Diana, she would have dine anything for any one she believed would reunite her with Diana. There's no excuse for her actions but there's reasons behind her actions. I don't think ignoring those reasons and then claiming Adalind was trying to get Nick for herself because she was somehow jealous of Juliette is supported by the show itself. I think in S4, she hated everyone equally for their part in Diana's kidnapping. Adalind going after Juliette for Juliette came in S4 during the biest fight when she used her tryst with Nick against her and physically attacked Juliette. After losing that fight, Adalind grew to positively hate her but she also feared her because she knew Juliette had become much stronger than her.

I see Adalind as she's been presented on the show, a villain between S1 and most of S4. In s3 she partially became human after the birth of her daughter but she was still a villain who didn't really care for anyone except herself and her daughter. It's only from the end of S4 to the end of S6 that she makes an effort to reform her character and that's only because of Kelly (& Diana) and eventually Nick. She only grew to want Nick in a romantic capacity once Juliette was out of the picture, that's how it played out on the show.

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(04-27-2017, 05:58 AM)speakeasy Wrote: [ -> ]From the point of view of this fan, I just didn't see any historical evidence of a personal hatred Adalind had for Juliette.

Neither did I see any personal hatred towards Juliette from Adalind at the beginning of the show when she was a most vicious villain and antagonist to the hero.

(04-27-2017, 04:58 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-26-2017, 08:37 PM)Mrtrick Wrote: [ -> ]They want to equate who Adalind is now with who she was then. As if saying, since she was once this dark character, she can never step into the light. If Nick and Adalind's relationship hadn't become a counterpoint to the dissolution of Nick and Juliette, they wouldn't care what sort of person Adalind was at the end. Accepting the notion that Adalind is a good person now or worthy of redemption, would make it more difficult to constantly rail against her. Maybe because I come from the other side of that fence, I can't fully understand it. But I've always liked Juliette/Eve, and I feel no desire to tear her down. I've also never seen it as a competition. In those first four years, I was completely behind Nick and Juliette. The tragedy that befell her, hit hard. So when we found out she was alive, I was overjoyed. Since her return however, I've wanted different things for her. And more than anything, in the end, I just wanted all the characters to be in a place that was right for them. I'm fond of each and every one of them. And I can tell you, getting back together wouldn't have been good for Nick and Juliette. They're not even remotely in the same emotional space anymore. Nick and Adalind need each other for a host of reasons, so this is the correct thing for them. But Adalind's old sins will continue to be unearthed and paraded around, as a means of trying to prove some illusive point. Like a jealous ex-girlfriend, embittered by a former lover's happiness. In search of some alternate history that lines up with their jaundiced view of things, regardless of the writer's intention or the facts presented on screen.

Well, you can always tell the ultimate intended insult when people are reduced from people to pronouns, such as "they". I can also tell it really rankles you because you somehow seem to see Adalind as the person who can do no wrong. She's just a victim of her circumstances, laa tee dah, laa tee dah.

I can also tell you that you couldn't be more wrong. No one's trying to rewrite the story. You know that. You're just annoyed because in your mind, Adalind should never be talked about in such tones. Now, if we were talking about Juliette in this manner, I can tell you, you wouldn't even be part of the conversation. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong.

You seem to live in this rose colored haze about Adalind. You know, you've already tried some pathetic lines to show just how really wonderful underneath it all her character was in the beginning:

"well yeah, she was irrational but she's perfectly fine now"
"well yeah, she attempted murder but that really wasn't her fault, Renard instigated it"
"well yeah, she hurt Juliette, but she was really trying to get at Nick"
"well yeah, she took Nick's grimm away and Juliette became a hexenbiest but she was only trying to get her baby back"
"well yeah, Marie's dead and she's responsible, but she never meant to harm anyone"

You do see how tedious your arguments (which are really excuses) become after a while.

Besides that, all we were talking about was Adalind's view of Juliette.
I mean, you can throw out the argument that we're re-writing the story, but that's your (again completely inaccurate and wrong) opinion.

You were the one who said Adalind was not rational. Yet she can't go after Juliette for irrational reasons. Instead you plaud her as this rational person who goes after Juliette to get at Nick. It's all revenge.

But then we have Renard. I don't see any revenge toward him. Yeah, she went with the royals. Big deal. He didn't like it, I'm sure, but it didn't slow him down any. He dumped her because she lost her powers. That's a big insult to a woman. One that should surely spur her to some ultimate revenge. Yet, what does she do? Not a thing.

I think she went after Juliette for more than an impersonal intent. I think her irrational mind rationalized that hatred of Juliette was a good thing. I don't see Adalind as the logical stone cold killer. I haven't seen any cogent arguments from you to convince me (or anyone who holds the viewpoint contrary to your own) otherwise.

I'm really surprised that you haven't used the argument that her hexenbiest made her do it.

And if you're up to it, answer these questions:

Was going after Juliette a smart move on Adalind's part? If so, why?

I never said Adalind could do no wrong. She's done plenty. I just believe she's changed. Nothing presented on the show, argues against that. And if you were talking about Juliette in that way, I'd be arguing just the same, (I've done so with Hexenadler). My problem is with the way past sins are used as the only barometer for a characters worth. And the way it's all used as a facade for the Nadalind vs. Nickliette debate. Also, dismissing the Hexenbeist effect, is reducing a major component of their psyche to an afterthought. It's not an insignificant thing. For both women, this is a defining trait. So if Juliette is labeled a victim of her circumstances and nature, how is Adalind not the same? If anything ever proved that the Beist within has an effect on a person's nature, it was Juliette's situation. The misquotes you ascribe to me, reduce the matter to a black and white perspective. (The last one is especially egregious, as the thing responsible for Marie's death is Cancer.) A person can be irrational at one point in their life and irrational at another. Eve can certainly attest to that. Do you forgive her? Do you let her move on, without holding those crimes over her head for all eternity? If so, why is that consideration only given to her and not Adalind? Is it because, ascribing humanity to Adalind's actions, creates the potential for sympathy? If there had been a single instance where Adalind was portrayed in an unsympathetic light since Nick and Adalind were thrown together, I would give credence to your view of her as forever evil. I've seen no such evidence.

The mere act of allying herself with the Royals was vengeful toward Renard. She knew their history and helping them get the key was a thumb of the nose to Sean. It didn't have to be a direct assault, which wouldn't be like her anyway. For her, living well would be the best revenge. It was part of her psychology at that point, trading one user for another.

As to whether it was smart for Adalind to go after Juliette, I suppose it depends on one's perspective. If the goal was to create as much havoc in Nick's world as possible, it was a very smart plan. He took something from her, so she was going to take something from him. In retrospect, it had the consequence of fostering a hatred between these two women, so that was less smart. Had Adalind struck at Nick by some other means, certain things may have played out differently between them. When Kelly brought Adalind and Diana to the house in season three, the tension between them might not have been so intense. Which fed strongly into everyone's behavior during the Diana kidnapping. Which, of course, set in motion everything that would come after. If Adalind hadn't put Juliette in that coma, perhaps they never end up locked in battle in that living room. Hindsight is 20/20.

Adalind as a character has gone through a transformation that didn't happen overnight. The process from the very bad girl introduced in S1 to the relatively good and maybe even overtly friendly Adalind of S6 was a long, painful and arduous journey for her. In S5, she made the decision to be different to what she used to be for Kelly's sake. As much as she was angry over Diana's kidnapping, she later took responsibility, attributing it to her own behavior and actions leading up to it. I do think that Nadalind as a pairing may be inflating some perception of the character at the end causing people to claim things that honestly didn't happen on the show. I understand people not liking her or liking her with Nick but saying she did things for reasons that weren't shown/revealed on the show is just a reach too far for me.

With regards to whether or not she's changed, I think she's moving in the right direction. I don't think she's completely rid of her worst traits because that's a lifetime of conditioning that she'd need to work continually to correct but she's now surrounded by people who truly love and care for her enough to make such an attempt worthwhile. I saw a deleted scene between her and Rosalee where she asks if it's possible to change and like Rosalee, I believe it's possible if a person wants it badly enough and I believe Adalind definitely wants to change for the better.

Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.

(04-27-2017, 08:39 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Should people who've actually turned their lives around be judged according the mistakes they did in the past? I sure hope not. Is there no merit to the new life they have chosen to live today in efforts to be better people than those of yesteryear? If not, what a sad place to live in.

If this truly were the case, Monroe and Rosalee would be hated instead of beloved. I know their sins happened before we were introduced to them and they didn't do anything to harm any of the main characters on the show but they wouldn't stand a chance if they were judged by their past. Monroe would definitely be a character that was despised because we know he participated in hunts and we have no clue if his prey deserved to be hunted down by him.

Adalind and Juliette aren't the scourge of the earth at the end of the show. I have a problem with how both were written but I'm not going to sit here and proclaim that they were presented as some evil or shady characters in the final season.

Speaking of shady characters, Renard is the poster boy. Yet, I can't even say he was presented as some shifty bastard at the end of the show. I don't like that either but that's what was given to us.