Grimm Forum

(10-30-2017, 08:20 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2017, 05:37 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2017, 05:09 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]There's a difference between providing information upon request and just blatantly volunteering it. Kenneth doesn't seem to me to be the kind of guy who wants information he didn't ask for.

Regardless, she gave it up, thus participating in their fates. I only know what happened, what kind of person Kenneth is, isn't in question.

Yes, but there is a difference. She did not volunteer the information.

Iruk,
If Juliette did not voluntarily give Kenneth the information, how did Kenneth coerce it from her? Can you provide a scene where he coerced her? Did he coerce her similarly to her methods for obtaining information?
From 5.9, "Star-Crossed":

Quote:Scene: Meisner takes a bag off the head of the man that Eve captured.

Meisner: I'm going to ask you a few questions. If you don't cooperate, someone else will ask you questions. You cooperate?
Captive: [He woges his eyes] Occultatum Libera!
Trubel: I don't think he's gonna cooperate.
Meisner: [To Eve] He's all yours. I'm getting coffee. [He leaves the room]
Eve: So you don't want to talk? Well, if you don't want to talk, then you won't be needing your mouth. [She puts her hand over the man's mouth, and when she removes her hand, the man's mouth is gone] If you can't talk to me, then... you probably don't want to see me either. [She removes the man's eyes the same way as his mouth] Speak no evil. See no evil.
Trubel: We're missing one, aren't we?
Eve: Oh, that's right. [Whispering] Hear no evil. [She removes the man's ears]
Meisner: [He returns to the room] How long is he going to take?
Eve: Depends on how much information you want.
Meisner: I want all of it.
Eve: Then we'll give him some time alone with his thoughts.
[Meisner and Eve leave the room as Trubel looks closer at what Eve did to the man]

The BC guy later decides to provide information. IMO, FrankenEve coerced the guy. She used extreme torture. In this case, he did not volunteer the information.
So Iruk, point to the scene where Kenneth coerced information from FrankenEve.
Good luck!
N G
Here is the visual:

She sure knows how to have good time!

(10-30-2017, 10:08 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]If Juliette did not voluntarily give Kenneth the information, how did Kenneth coerce it from her? Can you provide a scene where he coerced her? Did he coerce her similarly to her methods for obtaining information?

New Guy, there is no point in going back and forth on this. You saw the disagreement with rpmaluki. You believe Juliette voluntarily gave the information, I believe she provided information upon request. I see them as two different things: You do not. It's not going to change because you pose a few questions and add script snippets. I'm sticking with agreeing to disagree on this one.

(10-29-2017, 09:02 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]she would have been aware that Kenneth and the royals were planning for a battle.

Yes, we agree. Juliette knew that the royals were planning for a battle. She also only knew of only one person being expected to this battle and that was Kelly.

Juliette knew that they were not going to sit down.
What could they have coerced?
She felt very powerful and was not interested in Nick.

(10-29-2017, 05:50 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]They knew fighting Kelly would be equivalent to fighting a mini-war. They knew she was dangerous because they know she single-handedly took out six members of the Verrat to get Diana out of Austria and it didn't take her long to do it. All of those troops were there for Kelly and to get possession of the most prized snowflake in the world even if Kelly showed up there herself.

No one's doubting her fighting skills as a lone grimm. I'm seriously doubting them when she has a child in tow, though. No matter how wonderful she is at taking out six verrat, she's going to be preoccupied with Diana. So I don't believe all of the troops were there simply for Kelly, especially when Kenneth and Juliette presumed she would bring Diana to begin with. Bringing a child to a battle was just the most astoundingly stupid thing any character has done on the series.

Irk, She didn't have a crystal ball she didn't know there would be a battle ,if she had she wouldn't have come with Diania obviously . Your are right though she was extermly stupid to fall for Kenneth and Juliette's plan dumbest move of the series.

(10-30-2017, 03:32 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Irk, She didn't have a crystal ball she didn't know there would be a battle ,if she had she wouldn't have come with Diania obviously . Your are right though she was extermly stupid to fall for Kenneth and Juliette's plan dumbest move of the series.

I don't give her any credit for that, Henry. I don't have the email that Juliette wrote, but I thought it read something to the effect that Nick was in trouble. Kelly had that knowledge up front and chose to ignore it.

(10-30-2017, 02:09 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2017, 10:08 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]If Juliette did not voluntarily give Kenneth the information, how did Kenneth coerce it from her? Can you provide a scene where he coerced her? Did he coerce her similarly to her methods for obtaining information?

New Guy, there is no point in going back and forth on this. You saw the disagreement with rpmaluki. You believe Juliette voluntarily gave the information, I believe she provided information upon request. I see them as two different things: You do not. It's not going to change because you pose a few questions and add script snippets. I'm sticking with agreeing to disagree on this one.

Iruk,
You are attempting to participate in a Forum. At times participants hold opposing views. These should and often do lead to spirited debate. At times the participants become caustic in arguing their position.
The issue presented to you is not about the opinions held by Forum participants but about the "facts" presented in support of opinions.
I found some articles about this problem:

Why People "Fly from Facts"
https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...rom-facts/

Quote:a debate that starts with testable factual statements, but then, when the truth becomes inconvenient, the person takes a flight from facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism

Quote:In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.[1] Denialism is an essentially irrational action that withholds the validation of a historical experience or event, by the person refusing to accept an empirically verifiable reality.

The Principles of Argumentation
https://www.csun.edu/~hcpas003/argument.html

Quote:To support your proposition, one must present evidence. There are two (2) types of evidence used in argumentation : fact(s) and opinion(s). Facts consist of items that can be verified or proven.

There has been a pattern of you and others to take a position where the only supporting evidence is opinion. Several of us present well established facts that supports our position and validates our opinion. We place a high value on facts and respect others who present other factual evidence to support an opposing position.

IMO, you practice denialism. In this particular thread you have failed to present any factual evidence and refer to established irrefutable facts as "script snippets" or other derogatory verbiage.

You can concede and redeem yourself, present valid facts to support your position or just throw another tantrum.

N G

New Guy-give it up. Your attempt to bait isn't working. Call all the names you want, do whatever. But you can read the arguments prior to your entry. It's obvious neither of us is going to budge. The spirited argument that you so desperately talk about has come and gone. You missed it. Better luck next time!

(10-30-2017, 03:38 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2017, 03:32 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Irk, She didn't have a crystal ball she didn't know there would be a battle ,if she had she wouldn't have come with Diania obviously . Your are right though she was extermly stupid to fall for Kenneth and Juliette's plan dumbest move of the series.

I don't give her any credit for that, Henry. I don't have the email that Juliette wrote, but I thought it read something to the effect that Nick was in trouble. Kelly had that knowledge up front and chose to ignore it.

That's exactly all she sent in the email to Kelly , but she didn't mention what kind of trouble so Kelly still wouldn't really know what to expect Irk , she certainly should have been prepared for the worst and she clearly wasn't ,which is diffently out of Charecter for her.