Grimm Forum

(11-14-2017, 10:41 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2017, 08:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]....

Alright, I now understand you better.

I'll start by agreeing with @Henry and say Adalind showed signs of caring about Nick (not romantically of course) as soon as 5x02 (or earlier in 4x22 after hearing about Kelly's death). In S5, I think she as worried after the FBI paid him a visit. In S4 she's mollifying him, while early in S5, she trying to hold on to her Grimm buffer against any attacks that could endanger her son, whom she's now rather attracted to. They have a sexually charged moment in 5x02 just before Hank calls him with a case and breaks the awkward moment. She wasn't in love but she was attracted to him, as he was attracted to her.

Back to your argument where Adalind contacts Meisner regarding Diana, at the beginning of season 5, she was under the impression that the Royals had Diana. That is what Nick told her at the end of S4. The last thing Nick saw was Diana in a helicopter with king Frederick. As far as Adalind could surmise, Diana was completely out of her reach. She had no idea Meisner was ever present that night. As far as she was concerned he continued living his mercenary life, going from one mission to another. He never tried to stay in contact with her even though he helped deliver Diana so she couldn't have expected him to keep tabs on Diana. What is likely clear to Adalind is that Meisner was much more interested in Grimms since HW had been spying on Nick for months wanting to recruit him until his loss of powers threw them off. Once they discovered he was a Grimm again, they resumed their spying, which explained Meisner showing up at the loft looking for Trubel. At this stage, without knowing Meisner's involvement with Diana's last disappearance, her asking him to help her find Diana would have seemed odd. It's more about Adalind's ignorance of the truth rather than her unwillingness to find Diana at a time when she was still so dependent on Nick. She might have been more proactive/go over Nick's head to try and find Diana if Sean had informed her immediately about Meisner's role on the night Frederick died.

I said that Adalind leaving Nick for Diana this soon after moving into the loft in order to be with Diana would have been difficult for Adalind, not because she was in love. It was still too soon for that. Her hesitation would have come from taking Kelly away from Nick when she was appreciative of all Nick had done at that stage to ensure their safety. At this point they were partners and she would have almost been reneging on an unspoken deal. I'm not saying she wouldn't have left, just that it would have been difficult to do so without some residual negative feelings regarding taking Kelly away but she would have done it if the opportunity presented itself. Someone mentioned the difference between what the viewers know and what the characters know. We know that Meisner was the person to approach in order to find Diana, Sean knew this but Adalind did. I can't expect her to act/do certain things without having access to the relevant information.

By the time she hears Meisner was present on the night Diana went missing I'm assuming she didn't approach him but rather reluctantly went to Nick because at least he seemed to be on her side and would take her chances with him compared to Sean or Meisner probably due to their remaining silent about Diana's fate at the end of S4 when they had the opportunity to be upfront on more than one occasion. That's my reasoning at least. When Sean finally brought her to Diana, things had grown far more complicated because of the choice she was forced to make. She did get to have both of her children under the same roof, just not the roof she had originally planned (her own) or even hoped for at the end (the loft's, however it did work out).

What I find intriguing about this whole Nick, Meisner and the ware bouts of Diana is how the Nick haters blame him for helping his mother take Diana from Adalind after faking the Resistance Kidnapping of Diana. After Season 4 and the beginning of season 5, Meisner is the one that knows where Diana is being kept or at least, he knows who has her.

This includes when Meisner calls the phone that belonged to Chaves and Adalind answered and recognized his voice. Yet, none of these Meisner fans fault him for keeping it from Adalind and somehow, there is plenty of blame going to Nick.

Adalind did everything to find Diana then she discovered she was pregnant for a second time and her focus shifted from finding Diana to protecting her new born son. She couldn't go after the Royals with baby Kelly in tow. It's only when she discovers that the Royals didn't have Diana that she resumes her search for Diana only her new circumstances limit what she can do. Before she would have done anything, gone anywhere, thrown herself at the mercy of the people she believed had Diana. She risked everything to find Diana but baby Kelly now made things more complicated, she honestly couldn't afford to risk him. She went to the only person she trusted and asked him to help find Diana.

(11-13-2017, 05:02 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]You know my position on Nick. He took an oath as a police officer to serve and protect. I know the show is Grimm and he's a grimm, but in my opinion, his oath as an LEO supercedes anything he chooses to make up so that he can call himself a grimm. So I cannot agree with Nick being judge, jury and executioner. That means his oath, which is his word, is no good and that means he is no good. After all, what is a man without his word?

You mentioned that Nick told the scoobies to kill Juliette and this raised a question in my mind. Does Nick have the right to order others to do his killing for him?

Hello Iruk,
I was able to find this documentation:
http://www.oregon.gov/dpsst/docs/ethicsvol20.pdf
If Nick were a real PPB detective, his oath would be:

Quote:On my honor,
I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character, or the public trust.
I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.
I will always uphold the constitution, my community and the agency I serve.

Also,
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/
displays the PPB Motto:

Quote:Sworn to protect. Dedicated to serve.

Regardless, your statement to Henry:

Quote:henry, I agree with you that Sean is corrupt. But he's been corrupt since the series began. Nick was not. He started out as an LEO that was on the right side of the law.

raises this question:
Do you apply different standards to a cop who was "corrupt since the series began," than a cop who "started out as an LEO that was on the right side of the law."
I agree that most (if not all) the PPB cops on the Grimm show were "corrupt" based on real world law, but in the Grimm/Wesen world, the rules change the rules.
In one of the final scenes of the pilot episode, 01.01:

Quote:Scene: Nick goes to the hospital and sits by Marie's bed.

Nick: There's so much I don't understand. There's so many things I need to ask you. Look, I love Juliette. I don't want anything to happen to her. I want you to know, whatever it is I'm supposed to do, I'll do it.

Could it be Nick is pledging a sort of "Grimm Oath?"
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Grimm

Quote:Grimms served as the (usually) freelance police of the Wesen world, dispatching those who could not live in peace with humans (by contrast, the Wesen Council enforced the internal rules of Wesen society). As a general rule, it was the responsibility of the Grimms to hunt down "the bad ones," those aggressive and malicious Wesen who preyed on humans or other Wesen. The majority of Grimms were only exposed to the Wesen community through these malcontents, leading some of them, namely the Endezeichen Grimms, to consider all Wesen abominations that needed to be exterminated.

For most of the series, Nick seems mild mannered for a Grimm.
The final lines for the series end as:

Quote:Kelly, come on.
- I'm almost done.
- Let's go.
- Diana.
- Hurry up.
I'm coming.
Mom and Dad are waiting.
We've got Wesen to kill.
The triplets are coming, too.
Yeah.
What's taking you so long?

I believe it was Diana's line "We've got Wesen to kill." Note Diana's first kill was in 3.13, "Revelation" she kills a Verrat agent by Telekinetically stabbing him in the eye with a pen. She has an impressive list of victims for such a young person.
IMO, the Grimm show is about discovery, hunting down and "dispatching those who could not live in peace." Lacking that element, the show would have been a flop. How could it survive WOW monster killers if the protagonist was shackled to real world police procedure? Boring.
N G

Quote:

(11-14-2017, 02:55 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]You mentioned that Nick told the scoobies to kill Juliette and this raised a question in my mind. Does Nick have the right to order others to do his killing for him?

Hello Iruk,
I was able to find this documentation:
http://www.oregon.gov/dpsst/docs/ethicsvol20.pdf
If Nick were a real PPB detective, his oath would be:

Quote:On my honor,
I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character, or the public trust.
I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.
I will always uphold the constitution, my community and the agency I serve.

Also,
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/
displays the PPB Motto:

Quote:Sworn to protect. Dedicated to serve.

Regardless, your statement to Henry:

Quote:henry, I agree with you that Sean is corrupt. But he's been corrupt since the series began. Nick was not. He started out as an LEO that was on the right side of the law.

raises this question:
Do you apply different standards to a cop who was "corrupt since the series began," than a cop who "started out as an LEO that was on the right side of the law."

Hello New Guy-
Actually, I never applied any standards to Sean at all. He's the designated bad guy in the series and has been since day one. I mean, what kind of standards can anyone apply to him to make him any worse than he is?

Nick, on the other hand, started out as a good guy. I assume he went on the police force for good reasons, perhaps a desire to help people, to uphold the law, to protect those who can't protect themselves and to make sure justice is fairly administered to everyone, even criminals.

So, one day because of the rantings of an old woman (Marie), Nick decides to throw all of what he worked for away because he no longer has principles. If we're going by the oath you're quoting above, Nick is in major violation. What's even worse, is the man who's really corrupt (Renard), has managed to corrupt Nick.

(11-14-2017, 02:55 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that most (if not all) the PPB cops on the Grimm show were "corrupt" based on real world law, but in the Grimm/Wesen world, the rules change the rules.
In one of the final scenes of the pilot episode, 01.01:

Quote:Scene: Nick goes to the hospital and sits by Marie's bed.

Nick: There's so much I don't understand. There's so many things I need to ask you. Look, I love Juliette. I don't want anything to happen to her. I want you to know, whatever it is I'm supposed to do, I'll do it.

Could it be Nick is pledging a sort of "Grimm Oath?"
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Grimm

Quote:Grimms served as the (usually) freelance police of the Wesen world, dispatching those who could not live in peace with humans (by contrast, the Wesen Council enforced the internal rules of Wesen society). As a general rule, it was the responsibility of the Grimms to hunt down "the bad ones," those aggressive and malicious Wesen who preyed on humans or other Wesen. The majority of Grimms were only exposed to the Wesen community through these malcontents, leading some of them, namely the Endezeichen Grimms, to consider all Wesen abominations that needed to be exterminated.

For most of the series, Nick seems mild mannered for a Grimm.
The final lines for the series end as:

Quote:Kelly, come on.
- I'm almost done.
- Let's go.
- Diana.
- Hurry up.
I'm coming.
Mom and Dad are waiting.
We've got Wesen to kill.
The triplets are coming, too.
Yeah.
What's taking you so long?

I believe it was Diana's line "We've got Wesen to kill." Note Diana's first kill was in 3.13, "Revelation" she kills a Verrat agent by Telekinetically stabbing him in the eye with a pen. She has an impressive list of victims for such a young person.
IMO, the Grimm show is about discovery, hunting down and "dispatching those who could not live in peace." Lacking that element, the show would have been a flop. How could it survive WOW monster killers if the protagonist was shackled to real world police procedure? Boring.
N G

I would have absolutely no issue with Nick pledging some kind of Grimm oath. As long as he resigned from the force in order to be a grimm.

(11-14-2017, 03:17 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I would have absolutely no issue with Nick pledging some kind of Grimm oath. As long as he resigned from the force in order to be a grimm.

Hi Iruk,
If Nick resigned from PPB the premis of the show would be lost:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm_(TV_series)
Underline added:

Quote:Grimm is an American fantasy police procedural drama television series created by Stephen Carpenter and Jim Kouf and produced by Universal Television for NBC. The series aired from October 28, 2011 to March 31, 2017, for 123 episodes, over six seasons. The series' narrative follows Portland Homicide detective, Nick Burkhardt (played by David Giuntoli), who discovers he is a Grimm, the latest in a line of Guardians who are sworn to keep the balance between humanity and mythological creatures, known as Wesen.

Another quote from production notes:
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Bad_Teeth

Quote:"There once was a man who lived a life so strange, it had to be true. Only he could see what no one else can... the darkness inside, the real monster within. And he's the one who must stop them. This is his calling. This is his duty. This is the life of a Grimm."

By the way, I agree that Renard played a significant role in the "corruption" of not only Nick, but other policemen in the precinct. For example, Lieutenant Grossante.
N G

(11-14-2017, 04:08 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ][quote='irukandji' pid='65479' dateline='1510697851']
I would have absolutely no issue with Nick pledging some kind of Grimm oath. As long as he resigned from the force in order to be a grimm.

Quote:Hi Iruk,
If Nick resigned from PPB the premis of the show would be lost:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm_(TV_series)
Underline added:
Grimm is an American fantasy police procedural drama television series created by Stephen Carpenter and Jim Kouf and produced by Universal Television for NBC. The series aired from October 28, 2011 to March 31, 2017, for 123 episodes, over six seasons. The series' narrative follows Portland Homicide detective, Nick Burkhardt (played by David Giuntoli), who discovers he is a Grimm, the latest in a line of Guardians who are sworn to keep the balance between humanity and mythological creatures, known as Wesen.

(laughs) You're right, New Guy. It wouldn't be much of a police procedural if Nick resigned. I don't know why it's called a police procedural though. I'd be inclined to call it a sci fi drama.

(11-14-2017, 04:08 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]Another quote from production notes:
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Bad_Teeth

Quote:"There once was a man who lived a life so strange, it had to be true. Only he could see what no one else can... the darkness inside, the real monster within. And he's the one who must stop them. This is his calling. This is his duty. This is the life of a Grimm."

By the way, I agree that Renard played a significant role in the "corruption" of not only Nick, but other policemen in the precinct. For example, Lieutenant Grossante.
N G

This has nothing to do with the topic, but I thought I would ask Re: the quote about grimms being able to see the darkness inside. Do you think that grimms can make a mistake about what they see inside a wesen? The reason I ask is actually due to Monroe. When Nick first met him, it was Monroe who went out of his way to befriend Nick. It makes me wonder what Nick would have done had Monroe given him grief instead.

Also, you have a good point about Grossante, and this got me thinking. Do you think the entire police department under Renard was corrupt? Maybe Nick was the last of the hold-outs before he became corrupt?

(11-14-2017, 04:42 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]This has nothing to do with the topic, but I thought I would ask Re: the quote about grimms being able to see the darkness inside. Do you think that grimms can make a mistake about what they see inside a wesen? The reason I ask is actually due to Monroe. When Nick first met him, it was Monroe who went out of his way to befriend Nick. It makes me wonder what Nick would have done had Monroe given him grief instead.

Also, you have a good point about Grossante, and this got me thinking. Do you think the entire police department under Renard was corrupt? Maybe Nick was the last of the hold-outs before he became corrupt?

Hi Iruk,
Nick saw the true self inside a Wesen. He saw the good in Monroe and Rosalee. He saw the evil in others.
No, I do not believe Renard's entire precinct was corrupt. Both Hank and Wu were Kehrseite, (until Wu turned a bit wolfy). IMO they did not show near the corruption of Renard, but did not hesitate to remove their badges and resort to Grimm rules such as the raid on the Royal Compound in 4.22. However, the North Precinct may have been 100% corrupt.
N G

(11-14-2017, 10:41 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]I'll start by agreeing with @Henry and say Adalind showed signs of caring about Nick (not romantically of course) as soon as 5x02 (or earlier in 4x22 after hearing about Kelly's death). In S5, I think she as worried after the FBI paid him a visit. In S4 she's mollifying him, while early in S5, she trying to hold on to her Grimm buffer against any attacks that could endanger her son, whom she's now rather attracted to. They have a sexually charged moment in 5x02 just before Hank calls him with a case and breaks the awkward moment. She wasn't in love but she was attracted to him, as he was attracted to her...

I understand your approach to the Nick/Adalind/children saga, but I don’t understand why Adalind’s feelings for Nick - love, gratitude, both - are given priority over her need to find her first child, or that a parent would consider any opportunity too slim to act on.

Adalind reaching out to Meisner, who might contact the Resistance, does not automatically require Adalind to leave Nick and/or Kelly. It’s simply an inquiry, an attempt to rescue her daughter from the Royals. Her effort might not result in actually getting Diana back, but the main goal should be Diana’s safety, getting her away from the Royals.

Adalind was focused on her love/need for Nick, turning a blind eye to any indication that her feelings weren’t reciprocated. To me, her behavior with Nick resembled her behavior with Renard in the first season. Rather than acknowledge he didn’t return her affection, she continued as his lackey, doing whatever he wanted in hopes of more than a working relationship.

Nick didn’t once express any concern for Adalind’s first child or the heartache she must be experiencing knowing Diana was with the Royals. He was distant for months after returning from Germany. And when Adalind told him Renard knew where Diana was and would use Diana to force her to do something for him, Nick replied with an emotionally detached ‘let me know if he contacts you again’ then rolled over and went back to sleep.

The writers presented Adalind as desperately in love with Nick to the detriment of her love and commitment to her daughter. It was close to the end of the season when Adalind found out Meisner had taken Diana, which leaves months that Adalind was content to leave her daughter with the Royals and focus only on Nick and their son. And even when later learning that Renard might be working with BC, Adalind chose to not reach out to Meisner so that he might prevent another nefarious group from getting their hands on Diana. She had been sufficiently content not to have Diana with her, then suddenly risks BC getting Diana in exchange for some slight chance they might allow her to see her daughter.

So I do question why Adalind would continue to focus on a relationship with Nick rather than her daughter’s safety, especially when he wasn’t even showing any genuine signs of returning her feelings. The most Nick declared was that he cared for her because she was his son’s mother. His stated reason for not harming/killing her after the suppressant had worn off was because he wouldn’t take his son’s mother from him. But the alarm that didn’t go off in Adalind’s head is that he didn’t appear to have any issues with her being separated from her first child.

Regardless of one person’s love for another, there has to be some sense of returned love. Yes, Nick protected and supported Adalind, but wasn’t that also an extension of her being his son’s mother.

For me, this isn’t about Nick and any question of what he should or shouldn’t have done or felt for Adalind. I’m not part of what dicappatore referred to as the ‘Nick haters’ club. I’m not impressed by the character, but as far as I’m concerned, hate for any character is a waste of time. So as it’s always been, my question of Adalind’s decisions and commitments have been based on her attitude and behavior concerning her missing child. And for me, Adalind being in love with Nick doesn’t explain why she wouldn’t grab at any opportunity to find and protect Diana, especially when believing the Royals had her and that BC might take her.

(11-14-2017, 05:51 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Iruk,
Nick saw the true self inside a Wesen. He saw the good in Monroe and Rosalee. He saw the evil in others.
No, I do not believe Renard's entire precinct was corrupt. Both Hank and Wu were Kehrseite, (until Wu turned a bit wolfy). IMO they did not show near the corruption of Renard, but did not hesitate to remove their badges and resort to Grimm rules such as the raid on the Royal Compound in 4.22. However, the North Precinct may have been 100% corrupt.
N G

Hi New Guy-
I know this is what the series stated, but what would be the point of Nick seeing evil in others if he himself is corrupt?

The topic is not is Juliette an accomplice. It is what did she know. As for responsibility. If this was real. Adalind would also be a Co defendant. As for who knew what. From the characters point of view. Adalind knew more about what Kenneth was most likely to do. She watched Kenneth brutalized Sean spy. With this knowledge she said nothing to Nick warning him what Kenneth was up to. Adalind knew Kenneth was going to try and turn Juliette.