(11-16-2017, 09:29 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Hi New Guy-
I actually did read your post, but before I go further, I need to go back a bit. My father was an LEO, as you well know. For a long time, he didn't care for any of the judges elected during voting. That said, he never once stated that justice should be placed in the hands of the common man and said common man should then be able to apprehend, judge and convict all in one. So I must disagree with your assessment that Juliette is guilty based on the law (which I believe you are referring to). The law does not allow any one person the right to determine guilt or innocence, or punishment.
If you are referring to her guilt within the fantasy realm of Grimm, that's fine. I still disagree with your conclusion, of course, but then you already knew that. It's what makes our discussions so interesting.
Hi Iruk,
My father served in the U S Army in WW II. He was wounded twice in combat and earned the Silver Star. He served with the 29th division and saw many war atrocities.
You may have heard of the Nuremberg Trials. Many Nazi henchmen were tried, found guilty and some were executed by hanging:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials
Note that Adolf Hitler never faced trial. Your premise that:
Quote: "[Your Father] never once stated justice should be placed in the hands of the common man and said common man should then be able to apprehend, judge and convict all in one. So I must disagree with your assessment that Juliette is guilty based on the law."
My father passed away 20 years ago, but I'm sure you can find a living WW II veteran to argue that Hitler was never tried, so under law he is not guilty.
I still hold my position as stated in post #350:
Quote:Juliette was never brought to trial, however IMO she fully meets the criteria for both an accessory and an accomplice. As such, she is guilty of Aggravated Murder.
By the way,
IMO if Hitler had faced trial, he would have been found guilty and hung along with the other Nazi War Criminals on 16 October 1946. IMO, Hitler is a guilty war criminal even if 100 "distinguished" law professors point to a lack of "trial in court of law."
N G
Hey New Guy-My father served as well, not in WWII, but another forgotten war, Korea. Thanks for sharing that your father received a silver star for his service. I work for a government contractor and we are proud to be of assistance to our vets. Their service is priceless.
As for Hitler, I am not arguing anything about that scumbag. Our debate was about Juliette, a fantasy character in a fantasy series.
(11-16-2017, 03:36 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Hey New Guy-My father served as well, not in WWII, but another forgotten war, Korea. Thanks for sharing that your father received a silver star for his service. I work for a government contractor and we are proud to be of assistance to our vets. Their service is priceless.
As for Hitler, I am not arguing anything about that scumbag. Our debate was about Juliette, a fantasy character in a fantasy series.
Hi Iruk,
IMO, not only WWII veterans, but the remaining Holocaust survivors would hold that Hitler was guilty of war crimes.
IMO, Hexenette was the greatest scumbag on Grimm. Her heinous acts of violence and hatred are more corrupt and evil than even Renard's.
If Kenneth and the Verrat took Kelly outside, tied her to a tree and told Hexenette they were ready. Then Hexenette goes out, Kenneth says "want more payback?" She woges and slashes Kelly with her claws laughing with joy for the pain she causes. Kelly looks at her and calls her a scumbag. Then Kenneth says "that's enough," one of the Verrat hands him a Reaper Scythe and Kenneth whacks off her head. Hexenette says "I didn't know you were gonna do that." Kenneth laughs, puts her head in a box and tells Hexenette to "put it where the Grimm will find it." They go in the house, grab Diana and leave together in a car.
All the scenes thereafter remain as filmed. Hexenette tells Nick the same:
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
That is not much of a departure from what actually happened. Note that Kelly was still alive when Kenneth decapitated her. There is no trial, etc. She just wanted to make Kelly bleed a bit as a "payback." Do you still say she is not guilty? If you say guilty, then why? Very little was changed other than her not staying upstairs during the slaughter.
N G
(11-16-2017, 04:45 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]IMO, Hexenette was the greatest scumbag on Grimm. Her heinous acts of violence and hatred are more corrupt and evil than even Renard's.
Hi New Guy-And that's fine. For you. For me, I look at all of the events that led up to the betrayal. Juliette (after hexenbiest) was a completely different person than Juliette (before hexenbiest). That is different from Renard, from Nick, from Monroe, from all of them. As I said before, this particular hexenbiest took control. Juliette did not invite it in for permanent residence.
Now before the factoid police come trolling in, this is not stating that Juliette is not guilty. She betrayed Kelly, which is my opinion is a far worse offense than murder. But, she cannot be convicted of betrayal.
(11-16-2017, 04:45 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]If Kenneth and the Verrat took Kelly outside, tied her to a tree and told Hexenette they were ready. Then Hexenette goes out, Kenneth says "want more payback?" She woges and slashes Kelly with her claws laughing with joy for the pain she causes. Kelly looks at her and calls her a scumbag. Then Kenneth says "that's enough," one of the Verrat hands him a Reaper Scythe and Kenneth whacks off her head. Hexenette says "I didn't know you were gonna do that." Kenneth laughs, puts her head in a box and tells Hexenette to "put it where the Grimm will find it." They go in the house, grab Diana and leave together in a car.
All the scenes thereafter remain as filmed. Hexenette tells Nick the same:
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
That is not much of a departure from what actually happened. Note that Kelly was still alive when Kenneth decapitated her. There is no trial, etc. She just wanted to make Kelly bleed a bit as a "payback." Do you still say she is not guilty? If you say guilty, then why? Very little was changed other than her not staying upstairs during the slaughter.
N G
I don't think you believe this can be considered a remote possibility anymore than I do. What I believe is that if a hexenbiest is out for murder, she isn't going to let some royal rob her of the pleasure. Adalind's a great example of a hexenbiest who wants to be in the action. Juliette didn't. She was upstairs even before Kelly came into the house.
Is she guilty of betrayal? Yes. Is she guilty of murder? Until a jury (which is not Nick) of her peers under the supervision of an appointed judge (which is also not Nick) tries and convicts her of it, she is not.
it was juliette the traitor,not the "Hexenbiest".
It is she who blamed Nick and it bothered her that he protected Adalind.
But she made it clear that she was not interested in continuing with the relationship-
remember your laugh before Nick-.
She was the delivery girl and from what I saw on tv-about real cases of murders-,
he is guilty of conspiracy to commit a crime and receives life imprisonment
(11-16-2017, 06:16 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:The behavior of Juliette "Hexenbiest" seems a person sick and unstable. Like the men who beat their partners and then they apologized with a bunch of flowers, for the next day do the same.
I tend to agree with this. Despite Juliette aligning with the Royals being a horribly bad decision, they were her lifeline at that time. And when that lifeline was gone and she was alone again, Juliette felt the full weight of her actions.
I think Juliette went to Nick after the King and Diana left because she believed he’d probably kill her and put an end to it all. But when he couldn’t, because by then he was as emotionally broken as she was, Juliette’s emotional break was retched up another notch and she leaped into kill mode.
That’s the main reason I’m not completely opposed to HW taking Juliette before she killed Nick. To me, Juliette was beyond the point of no return once she decided she could and would kill Nick. And without prevention, she would have ramped up her attacks against her former friends. I didn’t see any indication that Juliette was still capable of taking control of her emotions and rage without outside intervention. I don’t think creating Eve was the right course of action, but that’s a different discussion.
OK, WTF is going on here Robyn. either you are starting to agree with me or I am starting to agree with you. It's scary!!!
Me and my wife are up to smack in the middle of season 6. After Juliette was healed by the stick and she goes to the spice shop to help clean up all the dead Wesen Trubel killed there, we see the “Death Grip” scene. I must have missed this on the last time around. When Rosalee reads up on how to break the grip she said something about this happening to people of pure soul.
How did I miss this? I guess the stick purified her soul and brought back some form of Juliette before she became a Hex. This would explain her protective attitude for Nick and his kid. There was no longer the Juliette wanting to kill Nick, his kid and Adalind. Well maybe just a bit of Adalind if she betrayed Nick.
I can see her accepting what she did. She knew she could not go back, as she attested later on in the “Other Plane of Existence”, before entangling with Zerstorer. I still don’t see her actually atone for the sin’s and betrayal she committed but I guess it’s as close as to some form of atonement the writers gave us.
I have to give credit to the actress, Bitsie, for her character portraying a real emotional confused persona. She did a much better job in her portraying the character. Maybe her lack luster performance in seasons 1 trough 3 was her fault of the writers and direction. For me, her acting abilities redeemed her from those earlier seasons.
(11-17-2017, 08:19 AM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]My favourite actor on the show is Claire coffe , I thought she was great especially in the emotional scenes that's one of the main reasons I prefer Nick with Adalind. I didn't find Bitsie anywhere near as good in the emotional scenes as Claire. I also didn't find Juliette a very likeable character even when she was a kind hearted character. That's just my personal opinion though there are lots of people who enjoyed Juliette's character and Bitsies acting.
Hi Henry,
My boys were active in various youth organizations. I saw many skits on overnight trips, and summer camps.
I recall one about Egor. The characters were Egor, his "master" and several victims. The lines were easy:
Quote:Egor, come!
Yes Master.
Egor Kill!!
Yes Master.
This repeated until all victims were dead. The kids would ad lib and ham it up while the audience howled with laughter. Good times.
In Grimm if you substitute Eve for Egor and Meisner for "Master" you have the plot and lines for season 5. Boring!
Maybe Bitsie could get some acting help from those kids. LOL
N G
(11-17-2017, 05:13 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (11-16-2017, 04:45 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]IMO, Hexenette was the greatest scumbag on Grimm. Her heinous acts of violence and hatred are more corrupt and evil than even Renard's.
Hi New Guy-And that's fine. For you. For me, I look at all of the events that led up to the betrayal. Juliette (after hexenbiest) was a completely different person than Juliette (before hexenbiest). That is different from Renard, from Nick, from Monroe, from all of them. As I said before, this particular hexenbiest took control. Juliette did not invite it in for permanent residence.
Now before the factoid police come trolling in, this is not stating that Juliette is not guilty. She betrayed Kelly, which is my opinion is a far worse offense than murder. But, she cannot be convicted of betrayal.
(11-16-2017, 04:45 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]If Kenneth and the Verrat took Kelly outside, tied her to a tree and told Hexenette they were ready. Then Hexenette goes out, Kenneth says "want more payback?" She woges and slashes Kelly with her claws laughing with joy for the pain she causes. Kelly looks at her and calls her a scumbag. Then Kenneth says "that's enough," one of the Verrat hands him a Reaper Scythe and Kenneth whacks off her head. Hexenette says "I didn't know you were gonna do that." Kenneth laughs, puts her head in a box and tells Hexenette to "put it where the Grimm will find it." They go in the house, grab Diana and leave together in a car.
All the scenes thereafter remain as filmed. Hexenette tells Nick the same:
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
That is not much of a departure from what actually happened. Note that Kelly was still alive when Kenneth decapitated her. There is no trial, etc. She just wanted to make Kelly bleed a bit as a "payback." Do you still say she is not guilty? If you say guilty, then why? Very little was changed other than her not staying upstairs during the slaughter.
N G
I don't think you believe this can be considered a remote possibility anymore than I do. What I believe is that if a hexenbiest is out for murder, she isn't going to let some royal rob her of the pleasure. Adalind's a great example of a hexenbiest who wants to be in the action. Juliette didn't. She was upstairs even before Kelly came into the house.
Is she guilty of betrayal? Yes. Is she guilty of murder? Until a jury (which is not Nick) of her peers under the supervision of an appointed judge (which is also not Nick) tries and convicts her of it, she is not.
Hi Iruk,
You stated:
Quote: For me, I look at all of the events that led up to the betrayal. Juliette (after hexenbiest) was a completely different person than Juliette (before hexenbiest).
So for you, Adalind was three different people? (Season 1 Hexenbiest, Blood of Grimm non-hexenbiest, then murder another hexenbiest to re-hexenbiest) Why didn't she tell Nick it was Hexenbiest 1 that did whatever. I don't buy any of the Hexen-Spirit possession malarkey. I saw the green thing leave Adalind, but I did not see any change in her attitude, morals or ethics after it departed, other than she cried about not having hexen-powers. IMO, having Nick's child did change her.
You also say:
Quote:I don't think you believe this can be considered a remote possibility anymore than I do. What I believe is that if a hexenbiest is out for murder, she isn't going to let some royal rob her of the pleasure. Adalind's a great example of a hexenbiest who wants to be in the action. Juliette didn't. She was upstairs even before Kelly came into the house.
The hypothetical I posed to you was IMO was not only plausible but in fact more likely than the send Juliette upstairs plot. As I noted previously, Juliette had a dream about killing Rosalee with her bare clawed hands. That is a fact, not a factoid. Juliette returned to Nick's house to kill him. FrankenEve confirmed this in the restaurant scene. Again fact not factoid.
G&K seem to have placed Hexenette upstairs just to have something visible on screen while the audio was about Kelly being killed. IMO it was because Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio was not available for the scene.
I did notice that you failed to answer the question(s):
Quote:That is not much of a departure from what actually happened. Note that Kelly was still alive when Kenneth decapitated her. There is no trial, etc. She just wanted to make Kelly bleed a bit as a "payback." Do you still say she is not guilty? If you say guilty, then why? Very little was changed other than her not staying upstairs during the slaughter.
If this were an essay exam would your professor accept you dodging his question? If your graduation depended on passing the course how would you answer?
You hold your position:
Quote: Until a jury (which is not Nick) of her peers under the supervision of an appointed judge (which is also not Nick) tries and convicts her of it, she is not.
You have yet to concede that Hexenette was guilty of murder. The factual evidence has been presented. It is irrefutable that the evidence shows Juliette was both an accessory and an accomplice to Kelly's murder.
You have revealed that you do not actually read some posts. So if you are reading this please provide your verifiable evidence that Juliette was neither an accessory nor an accomplice to Kelly's murder. Respond to this as if a pre-trial request from the presiding judge had sent it to you as the defense attorney for Hexenette. Failure to reply shall place you in contempt of the court.
N G
Juliette\eve seems to have no problem with actions considering she has 24 kills to her name, Adalind has 2 kills , I think it’s pretty obvious which hexenbiest prefers action. Juliette’s seen more action than nealry all the hexenbiests on the show combined. Adalind olnly gets envovled in a fight when it’s a life or death situation beacuse she’s usually pretty useless in a fight lets be honest action was never her strong suit . Adalind was always great with spells and potions and manipulation but never action. Juliette\ eve had multiple confrontations in seasons 4 and 5 the only action infact Julitte avoided was Kelly’s murder, probably beacuse she had too much guilt and was too ashamed to face Kellys actual death.
I personal don’t think Bitsie as bad an actress as some do but I think she just struggles with portraying emotional vulnerability . I think she done a great job with portraying the angrier emotions but struggled with showing the softer emotions. That’s why I thought some of her best acting on the show was playing evil Julliet of season 4.