what I find amazing is the assumptions are being made from the point of the viewer.
There was not one statement that would have let Juliette know the neighbors where dead. The assumption is made about what Kenneth and the Varret where going to do because we have knowledge and have seen them in action. Where has Juliette ever been exposed to the Royals. The only confrontation Juliette has any knowledge of was with the wesenreign. Even that one ended with only a few people dying. People make the assumption that Juliette even knows the number of Nick kills. Even the writers created a scenario to show that Kelly's death was not a for gone conclusion. Right after Kenneth and the Varret. The show replays the scene with the same number of men. Dressed the same with the same weapons. This time they take Juliette and no one dies. True as viewers we know that would not be and expected result from Kenneth. But Juliette the character does not know what we know. If you view the attack from Nick point of view. He would have known without a doubt what would happen. He has dealt with them.
Sure Juliette was mad and Nick and Adalind. But the show did a complete narration of why Juliette joined the Royals. Kenneth and the King let her know with the Royals she had a place and was wanted.
Another point the writter's made a point to show. Even as mad as Juliette was at Adalind she could not kill her. To go from that mindset to all of a sudden able to plan to commit multiple murders seems a big stretch. Even at the end the writers showed she did not have the mindset of a killer. She fought with Nick. Unlike Eve who if she wanted you dead you where dead without her lifting a finger. Meaning if Juliette had of had the killer mindset. Nick would have been dead.
For me a scene is written for a reason. Because the writter's create scenarios to make a point, to me it is not by chance but to frame an idea. It is to help direct the story and clear up ambiguity.
I don't expect most of the posters to abandon their point of view ,because they watched the show and have created and opinion based on what they know. But the topic is what did Juliette know. Not what did the viewer know. It is not even what did Nick know. Considering it has been established that Nick tells Juliette very little about being a grimm or the wesen world or what he does. If he had it is most likely she would have made a different choice then what she did to get him his powers back. Remember until she became a hexenbiest she had no idea what they where capable of. She had no idea that magic even existed. We know that by the surprise she showed as her powers started to develop.
(11-13-2017, 07:33 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]what I find amazing is the assumptions are being made from the point of the viewer.
There was not one statement that would have let Juliette know the neighbors where dead. The assumption is made about what Kenneth and the Varret where going to do because we have knowledge and have seen them in action. Where has Juliette ever been exposed to the Royals. The only confrontation Juliette has any knowledge of was with the wesenreign. Even that one ended with only a few people dying. People make the assumption that Juliette even knows the number of Nick kills. Even the writers created a scenario to show that Kelly's death was not a for gone conclusion. Right after Kenneth and the Varret. The show replays the scene with the same number of men. Dressed the same with the same weapons. This time they take Juliette and no one dies. True as viewers we know that would not be and expected result from Kenneth. But Juliette the character does not know what we know. If you view the attack from Nick point of view. He would have known without a doubt what would happen. He has dealt with them.
Sure Juliette was mad and Nick and Adalind. But the show did a complete narration of why Juliette joined the Royals. Kenneth and the King let her know with the Royals she had a place and was wanted.
Another point the writter's made a point to show. Even as mad as Juliette was at Adalind she could not kill her. To go from that mindset to all of a sudden able to plan to commit multiple murders seems a big stretch. Even at the end the writers showed she did not have the mindset of a killer. She fought with Nick. Unlike Eve who if she wanted you dead you where dead without her lifting a finger. Meaning if Juliette had of had the killer mindset. Nick would have been dead.
For me a scene is written for a reason. Because the writter's create scenarios to make a point, to me it is not by chance but to frame an idea. It is to help direct the story and clear up ambiguity.
I don't expect most of the posters to abandon their point of view ,because they watched the show and have created and opinion based on what they know. But the topic is what did Juliette know. Not what did the viewer know. It is not even what did Nick know. Considering it has been established that Nick tells Juliette very little about being a grimm or the wesen world or what he does. If he had it is most likely she would have made a different choice then what she did to get him his powers back. Remember until she became a hexenbiest she had no idea what they where capable of. She had no idea that magic even existed. We know that by the surprise she showed as her powers started to develop.
My question to you sys is, SO WHAT? If Juliette did not know how many Kenneth was planning to kill, so what? Kenneth himself probably didn’t know how many would die, himself. The fact is, A few neighbors did die. Kelly, Nick’s mom, was baited by Juliette, betrayed which resulted in her decapitation. I don’t think my last two sentences are opinions, they are facts.
Does it excuse Juliette from being an accomplice to the fact that there were neighbor’s dead from her assisting in the planning? In a court of law, would she have gotten off the hook and found not guilty of Aiding and abetting in committing murder? Maybe if she was OJ Simpson. Assume to your hearts's content. She would have been found GUILTY!
(11-13-2017, 07:33 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]But the topic is what did Juliette know. Not what did the viewer know. It is not even what did Nick know.
syscrash, you brought up something that I don't think I've ever seen addressed. Why was Nick so clueless during all of this? I don't mean he should know all of it, no one could know that. But there's enough going on around him where at least one red flag should have been raised in alarm. Instead he just lets it all slide by.
I do not know if I would call " corrupt".
Sean dealt in his own way with "affairs Wesen" in its territory. Would not get into the affairs of other Wesen.
Sure that Ken did not tell him- Juliette- he was going to kill Kelly.
But if one walks with thieves you will not believe that they will ask borrowed.
(11-14-2017, 05:57 AM)brandon Wrote: [ -> ]I do not know if I would call " corrupt".
Sean dealt in his own way with "affairs Wesen" in its territory. Would not get into the affairs of other Wesen.
Sure that Ken did not tell him- Juliette- he was going to kill Kelly.
But if one walks with thieves you will not believe that they will ask borrowed.
You might not, but what is a man worth who goes back on his word?
Quote:All I can say to that is she didn't go with Meisner because he wasn't offering and she wasn't interested. Meisner didn't actually become an option for Adalind. He couldn't, at least not before she found out he was responsible for the Royals missing out on Diana and by then she was in love with Nick (and I'm sure Diana had already ended up with BC or nearly almost). If he'd initially offered to bring her to Diana when he first goes to the loft, it would have been just as difficult for her to leave Nick but for different reasons than what actually aired. We know she left Nick because BC threatened her and thus did it because she wasn't willing to chance anyone getting hurt, including Nick.
I’m not referring to the overall Nick/Adalind story. Only a specific timeframe of their story that alerted Adalind to Meisner being in Portland and a possible lifeline to getting Diana back.
I don’t remember the episode, but it was right after moving to the loft - Adalind had a conversation with Kelly about his sister and her hopes that they’d all be together some day. At the end of Maiden Quest, Adalind voiced concern for everything Nick was having to deal with. He hugged her as a way to offer comfort & assurance. Adalind’s facial expression suggested bewilderment, not contentment & relief, and certainly not growing feelings of love. There wasn’t any indication at that moment of anyone falling in love or having any idea of the possibility. It was in the next episode, Rat King, that Meisner came to the loft to find Trubel. There wasn’t any reason for Adalind to suspect he had taken Diana from the King or that he had any connection to Juliette. He was just the guy who risked his life to help her & Diana and never indicated he wanted to separate her from Diana. That’s it. There weren’t any questions or concerns about Meisner at that point. Maybe how reaching out to him and actively searching for Diana might compromise her arrangement with Nick, which would directly compromise Kelly’s safety, but not her opinion of Meisner based on her experience with him up to that point. It was in the next episode, Wesen Nacht, that the show introduced Adalind might be falling for Nick - her silly, school-girl response to Trubel’s question. And in the next episode, Eve of Destruction, Adalind learned of Meisner’s connection to Juliette and making her into a weapon.
I’m not suggesting the story needed to change so that Adalind reaching out to Meisner resulted in him scurrying her and Kelly off to join Diana in the safe house. I’m suggesting the flow & timing of information to Adalind allowed for her to express her need & determination to find Diana without actually changing the official story’s ending. And that the S5 Adalind who was content to play house with Nick and mother his son is a contraction to the Adalind who was willing to battle the Royals in S3 to keep Diana with her, and go to Nick in S4 because it offered the best protection for her unborn child.
There was sufficient time for Adalind to reach out to Meisner, which would have resulted in him pacifying her by pretending he’d try. The scenario doesn’t require Meisner to be Adalind’s knight in shining armor or love interest, it only requires Adalind to believe he intends to help her until she discovers otherwise. Another scenario that would accomplish the same would be for Adalind to debate and fret over what she should do. Her need to find Diana has her picking up the HW phone time and again to call Meisner, but each time the possible repercussions has her putting the phone down.
My issues with Adalind’s official storyline is only about her lack of determination & effort to get Diana back. It’s never been about her relationship with Meisner other than his connection with the Resistance and that they helped her in the past.
But I do think Adalind not trying to find Diana because she was in love with Nick is a very poor excuse for the show to provide. In what scenario does a woman’s love for a man outweigh a mother’s love for her child? If Adalind would forgo finding Diana because it might interfere with Nick wanting to be with her, then might she abandon Nick and Kelly if she fell in love and had a child with someone else in the future?
There's probably a million and one what-ifs and rationales for Adalind to question Meisner's intent, and for her concern of Nick and their arrangement/budding relationship. But I don't see how any of those would convince Adalind to not reach out to Meisner for help prior to learning of his connections to Diana, the King, and Juliette/Eve. I don't see these what-ifs and rationales automatically giving validity to Adalind accepting as early as the fourth episode that she would probably never see Diana again, and therefore, not even try.
For me, Adalind loving Nick, sharing a bed with him, having a child with him, and not wanting to be a Hexenbiest are irrelevant to her lack of expressed need and determination to get Diana back. Why should her earlier failed attempts prevent her from continuing to try?
My argument has never been about Adalind falling in love with Nick. I don’t understand her swift freefall, but I accept it as part of the official Nick/Adalind storyline and characterization. Which means I also have to accept that within the official storyline, Adalind's commitment to Nick possibly outweighed her commitment to Diana. But I still question what the official storyline says about Adalind as a woman and as a mother. At what point did her love and commitment to Nick and Kelly outweigh her love and commitment to Diana? What/Who would Adalind be willing to sacrifice so she could be with Nick? It's strange to me that Adalind would pass off any opportunity to rescue Diana from the Royals, but later take an adamant stance that Diana would not live with her father. To me, it was simply that Diana was eventually brought into a situation that ultimately landed her back with Adalind, and that, Adalind proactively searching for Diana risked being a no going back to Nick proposition, while insisting Diana live with them allowed room for her to acquiesce if it interfered in her relationship with Nick.
And I should clarify that I don’t think G & K intended to present Adalind in such a negative light, at least not as harshly as I’ve described it. But. How G & K chose to use Adalind in order to move her quickly and easily to falling in love with Nick, the character ultimately carries the burden of unintended fallout. G & K chose to present Adalind as more desperate to be with Nick than to find her daughter. That’s going to have unintended consequences, at least with viewers like me who aren’t influenced by Nick being the leading male/Grimm/hero. For me, this is only about what it expresses about Adalind, regardless of who her love interest is.
(11-14-2017, 08:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]....
Alright, I now understand you better.
I'll start by agreeing with @Henry and say Adalind showed signs of caring about Nick (not romantically of course) as soon as 5x02 (or earlier in 4x22 after hearing about Kelly's death). In S5, I think she as worried after the FBI paid him a visit. In S4 she's mollifying him, while early in S5, she trying to hold on to her Grimm buffer against any attacks that could endanger her son, whom she's now rather attracted to. They have a sexually charged moment in 5x02 just before Hank calls him with a case and breaks the awkward moment. She wasn't in love but she was attracted to him, as he was attracted to her.
Back to your argument where Adalind contacts Meisner regarding Diana, at the beginning of season 5, she was under the impression that the Royals had Diana. That is what Nick told her at the end of S4. The last thing Nick saw was Diana in a helicopter with king Frederick. As far as Adalind could surmise, Diana was completely out of her reach. She had no idea Meisner was ever present that night. As far as she was concerned he continued living his mercenary life, going from one mission to another. He never tried to stay in contact with her even though he helped deliver Diana so she couldn't have expected him to keep tabs on Diana. What is likely clear to Adalind is that Meisner was much more interested in Grimms since HW had been spying on Nick for months wanting to recruit him until his loss of powers threw them off. Once they discovered he was a Grimm again, they resumed their spying, which explained Meisner showing up at the loft looking for Trubel. At this stage, without knowing Meisner's involvement with Diana's last disappearance, her asking him to help her find Diana would have seemed odd. It's more about Adalind's ignorance of the truth rather than her unwillingness to find Diana at a time when she was still so dependent on Nick. She might have been more proactive/go over Nick's head to try and find Diana if Sean had informed her immediately about Meisner's role on the night Frederick died.
I said that Adalind leaving Nick for Diana this soon after moving into the loft in order to be with Diana would have been difficult for Adalind, not because she was in love. It was still too soon for that. Her hesitation would have come from taking Kelly away from Nick when she was appreciative of all Nick had done at that stage to ensure their safety. At this point they were partners and she would have almost been reneging on an unspoken deal. I'm not saying she wouldn't have left, just that it would have been difficult to do so without some residual negative feelings regarding taking Kelly away but she would have done it if the opportunity presented itself. Someone mentioned the difference between what the viewers know and what the characters know. We know that Meisner was the person to approach in order to find Diana, Sean knew this but Adalind did. I can't expect her to act/do certain things without having access to the relevant information.
By the time she hears Meisner was present on the night Diana went missing I'm assuming she didn't approach him but rather reluctantly went to Nick because at least he seemed to be on her side and would take her chances with him compared to Sean or Meisner probably due to their remaining silent about Diana's fate at the end of S4 when they had the opportunity to be upfront on more than one occasion. That's my reasoning at least. When Sean finally brought her to Diana, things had grown far more complicated because of the choice she was forced to make. She did get to have both of her children under the same roof, just not the roof she had originally planned (her own) or even hoped for at the end (the loft's, however it did work out).
(11-14-2017, 10:41 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ] (11-14-2017, 08:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]....
Alright, I now understand you better.
I'll start by agreeing with @Henry and say Adalind showed signs of caring about Nick (not romantically of course) as soon as 5x02 (or earlier in 4x22 after hearing about Kelly's death). In S5, I think she as worried after the FBI paid him a visit. In S4 she's mollifying him, while early in S5, she trying to hold on to her Grimm buffer against any attacks that could endanger her son, whom she's now rather attracted to. They have a sexually charged moment in 5x02 just before Hank calls him with a case and breaks the awkward moment. She wasn't in love but she was attracted to him, as he was attracted to her.
Back to your argument where Adalind contacts Meisner regarding Diana, at the beginning of season 5, she was under the impression that the Royals had Diana. That is what Nick told her at the end of S4. The last thing Nick saw was Diana in a helicopter with king Frederick. As far as Adalind could surmise, Diana was completely out of her reach. She had no idea Meisner was ever present that night. As far as she was concerned he continued living his mercenary life, going from one mission to another. He never tried to stay in contact with her even though he helped deliver Diana so she couldn't have expected him to keep tabs on Diana. What is likely clear to Adalind is that Meisner was much more interested in Grimms since HW had been spying on Nick for months wanting to recruit him until his loss of powers threw them off. Once they discovered he was a Grimm again, they resumed their spying, which explained Meisner showing up at the loft looking for Trubel. At this stage, without knowing Meisner's involvement with Diana's last disappearance, her asking him to help her find Diana would have seemed odd. It's more about Adalind's ignorance of the truth rather than her unwillingness to find Diana at a time when she was still so dependent on Nick. She might have been more proactive/go over Nick's head to try and find Diana if Sean had informed her immediately about Meisner's role on the night Frederick died.
I said that Adalind leaving Nick for Diana this soon after moving into the loft in order to be with Diana would have been difficult for Adalind, not because she was in love. It was still too soon for that. Her hesitation would have come from taking Kelly away from Nick when she was appreciative of all Nick had done at that stage to ensure their safety. At this point they were partners and she would have almost been reneging on an unspoken deal. I'm not saying she wouldn't have left, just that it would have been difficult to do so without some residual negative feelings regarding taking Kelly away but she would have done it if the opportunity presented itself. Someone mentioned the difference between what the viewers know and what the characters know. We know that Meisner was the person to approach in order to find Diana, Sean knew this but Adalind did. I can't expect her to act/do certain things without having access to the relevant information.
By the time she hears Meisner was present on the night Diana went missing I'm assuming she didn't approach him but rather reluctantly went to Nick because at least he seemed to be on her side and would take her chances with him compared to Sean or Meisner probably due to their remaining silent about Diana's fate at the end of S4 when they had the opportunity to be upfront on more than one occasion. That's my reasoning at least. When Sean finally brought her to Diana, things had grown far more complicated because of the choice she was forced to make. She did get to have both of her children under the same roof, just not the roof she had originally planned (her own) or even hoped for at the end (the loft's, however it did work out).
You know we almost never agree but this post is one your best and I see all your points as being right on.