(02-26-2016, 06:05 PM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]Nick never expressed any reaction/emotion that conveyed he felt raped. Tricked. Yes. Raped No. What Nick did demonstratively express was his delight of the best sexual pleasure he and Juliette had ever experienced.
Yes he did and that bothers me a lot about the episode. It makes Nick look like a thoughtless chump, or as izzy would put it, a pig. I don't begrudge Nick getting pleasure from the act. He thought it was Juliette. That makes sense. But when he found out it was Adalind, why wasn't he outraged? She violated him in the worst way possible, forcing her way into his world under the disguise of a woman he loved. To make matters worse, Nick looks at Juliette's reaction as incomprehensible. Juliette had every right to be outraged. Adalind violated her too.
(02-26-2016, 06:05 PM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]Nick never expressed any reaction/emotion that conveyed he felt raped. Tricked. Yes. Raped No. What Nick did demonstratively express was his delight of the best sexual pleasure he and Juliette had ever experienced.
Only problem was, he shared his joy minutes before Juliette informed him it wasn’t her. Nick couldn’t unshare what he’d just shared with Juliette. So they’d have to live with it and pretend he never had that reaction to sex with Adalind while disguised as Juliette.
Nick was upset & angry because he’d hurt & embarrassed Juliette, and because he lost his Grimm.
But if we decide to disregard Nick’s reaction and insist that it be properly labeled as rape, then we should explore the cause of the rape and similar unsavory behavior.
Kelly, Renard, Nick, and the gang conspired & kidnapped Adalind’s baby, then lied to her that Viktor had her baby. Viktor used the Portland gang’s deceit to his advantage making Adalind believe if she took Nick’s Grimm he would allow her to return to the castle & live with her child.
What parent would opt to give up their child for the sake of not harming one of the people that kidnapped their child? Nick & Adalind had been enemies since the day Renard pitted them against each other. Nick didn’t give a damn about Adalind’s emotional breakdown over losing her baby; why should Adalind give a damn about Nick losing his Grimm?
If Adalind raped Nick by deception, then Nick murdered Adalind’s hexenbiest by deception. Nick goaded Adalind into a fight with preconceived intentions of getting her to ingest his blood which would kill her hexenbiest - an innate part of her. Nick killed Adalind’s hexenbiest to save Hank’s life. Adalind took Nick’s Grimm to get her child back. Both used deceit to save persons important to them. One act is no more or no less criminal than the other.
The Rooftop Conversation:
On it’s face, the conversation was tactless, vulgar even. But when we remove ourselves as viewers from the exchange, it becomes a private conversation that is brutally frank between two people that trust one another to keep the conversation private.
I took Monroe’s comment about Nick sleeping with both women while each other as being more about the impact it had on Nick & Adalind’s arrangement/relationship/feelings. It’s how/why their son was conceived, and in order for their arrangement/relationship/feelings to move forward, they have to get past it.
I didn’t see Nick as uncomfortable about the Nick/Adalind/Juliette sex as he was about Monroe questioning his & Adalind’s feeling about one another. Nick said he didn’t know how Adalind felt about him because they didn’t talk about it. But they did. At his prompting. Nick shared a rather intimate secret with Adalind - he chose being a Grimm over a normal life with Juliette & she agreed to it. And then he gave Adalind a big neon green light that he was ready for them to explore their feelings. But Adalind wasn’t interested in exploring anything beyond their brief, closed-mouth kiss, and closed the door on any future exploration until some undisclosed date when they’re both sure it’s about them & what they really want from their arrangement/relationship.
Nick tried again while they were discussing the murders/rain ritual, but again, Adalind shut him down. Nick gave it his best boy next door charm and Adalind walked away, ignoring he’d put it out there.
Nick told Monroe he didn’t know how he was supposed to feel about Adalind, he’d hated her for so long. They were living together & had a kid, it was both strange & normal.
But Nick does know how he feels about Adalind, or maybe more precise, he knows how he’d feel if he allowed himself to. And I think that’s what most of Nick’s guilt, especially where Juliette’s concerned, stems from. His & Adalind’s husband/wife-father/mother household might feel strange, but it also feels normal to him, and he’s enjoying it & feeling more relaxed about it day by day.
But he’s not completely ready to admit it to himself, and not anywhere near ready admitting it to Monroe or anyone else. So he evades just enough to get by.
For me, the one thing blaringly missing from the conversation was any follow up to Nick’s comment - Who would have believed Adalind would be such a good mother?
Do any of them give a damn that Adalind’s other child is with the Royals - or does only Nick’s child matter? Do any of them question that Adalind would have been an equally wonderful mother to her daughter had they not kidnapped her? Do any of them question that Adalind would have likely never returned to Portland and none of the S4 disaster would have occurred if Kelly Burkhardt had followed orders instead of rerouting the plane to Portland?
Until a frank discussion takes place about Diana’s kidnapping & how it went down, for me, any possible Nick/Adalind relationship will be far more tainted by Nick’s actions than from Adalind raping Nick in hopes of getting her child back.
I agree with so many of your points here! Diana's kidnapping is something that has always angered me, I think even more so because it was framed as "the right thing" even though it was clearly a horrible thing to do.
When nick said "who would have thought Adalind would be such a good mother" I almost screamed. Especially because one of the ways they kept trying to justify Diana's kidnapping was "Adalind wouldn't have been a good mother anyway" as if they had any way of knowing that. I know so many people who did not great things before becoming mothers but were still fantastic mothers.
Also, another thing about the Nick and Adalind as Juliette situation. People keep trying to frame it as if Adalind out of the blue decided that she was going to disguise herself as Juliette and take away Nick's grimm powers for revenge-- she thought that it was the only way that she would see her child. This doesn't make what happened okay, but because of this I view it as more of a rape by proxy situation with Victor as the perpetrator and Adalind and Nick both as victims. Even though Adalind was the one who did the deed, in her mind it was either that or never see her child again, and like you mentioned, that probably wasn't even a question for her. Victor used Adalind, and he was only able to do so because she was deceived by everybody else. It's ironic that if Kelly hadn't rerouted the helicopter to portland, none of this would have happened, and she would still be alive.
Why is it the people who are upset because they sent Diana away. Never address the issue if Diana had stayed with Adalind. Who was gong to protect Adalind and Diana from the Royals. No one ever bring up the fact. Viktor said he would start killing people if he did not get Diana. You could say that was a scare tactic, except he killed the last Varette leader that failed.
Sean knows what viktor is capable of, do you think he would go up against Viktor and the Varette.
Kelly stuck her neck out for Diana. The reason Adalind made it to Portland was Kelly did not know who she was. Kelly would have left her there with Meisner.
The only other person would be Nick.
Why Diana being with the Royals is bad is all true. Adalind as we see would make a great mother. Sean showed he would be supportive. Separating a mother from her child is one the the worst thing you could do. All of those things are true. The issue is Diana stays they all die. Viktor said so. He did not hint, he came right out and told Sean the child or you and everyone you care about dies. Viktor had the leader of the varette killed for failing. Why would you think he was making an idol threat.
Even if Sean had killed Viktor, the Royals would do what the did anyway. Send Kenneth. Kill Kenneth they would have sent someone else.
Quote:I agree Adalind and Diana would have been a pawn and Adalind would have tried to escape once she realized that they were just using her kid.
You mentioned escape. Adalind already said they get Diana she and Sean are dead. There is no escaping.
This is what concerns me about Kelly and Lucien. Lucien has shown he is will to use people close to Nick. To get to him. What better hostage then his son.
(02-26-2016, 08:48 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Why Diana being with the Royals is bad is all true. Adalind as we see would make a great mother. Sean showed he would be supportive. Separating a mother from her child is one the the worst thing you could do. All of those things are true. The issue is Diana stays they all die. Viktor said so. He did not hint, he came right out and told Sean the child or you and everyone you care about dies. Viktor had the leader of the varette killed for failing. Why would you think he was making an idol threat.
Even if Sean had killed Viktor, the Royals would do what the did anyway. Send Kenneth. Kill Kenneth they would have sent someone else.
Quote:I agree Adalind and Diana would have been a pawn and Adalind would have tried to escape once she realized that they were just using her kid.
You mentioned escape. Adalind already said they get Diana she and Sean are dead. There is no escaping.
This is what concerns me about Kelly and Lucien. Lucien has shown he is will to use people close to Nick. To get to him. What better hostage then his son.
@syscrash.... I forgot about that line. It's been so long since I watched it. LOL
(02-26-2016, 07:35 PM)Nightschade Wrote: [ -> ]Also, another thing about the Nick and Adalind as Juliette situation. People keep trying to frame it as if Adalind out of the blue decided that she was going to disguise herself as Juliette and take away Nick's grimm powers for revenge-- she thought that it was the only way that she would see her child. This doesn't make what happened okay, but because of this I view it as more of a rape by proxy situation with Victor as the perpetrator and Adalind and Nick both as victims.
I don't know where it's been said that Adalind's being framed. I was talking about Nick's response to being raped.
It's really fascinating to read just how far people will go to avoid the subject. Nick wasn't raped because he enjoyed it. Juliette is a pariah because she overreacted. And I admit it, I was on that bandwagon too. Until I realized that she had every right to be outraged. It was not only her lover that was used, she was the victim of the worst kind of identity theft.
Adalind had the luxury of expending tremendous amounts of money, time, and energy to look for Diana. That seems to have faded fast. Now she's just mooning around, 'hoping' Diana is okay. So much for searching for her.
Nick never got the luxury of being outraged over himself, his home and lover being violated. He didn't get the luxury of being able to think the entire situation through, even to the point of tracing it back to the kidnapping or Adalind's attempted murder of Marie. He didn't even get the luxury of talking to Juliette about the embarrassment and humiliation he must have felt, thinking it was Juliette he was with and instead it turned out to be Adalind. Instead, he was whispering to Hank about how he wished he had his powers back even though he told Juliette he wanted to be normal.
What could have been a great story arc got buried in mediocrity.
Adalind tells Victor that does not like me when this makes insinuations about what it was like sleeping with a ".GRIMM.she does that Victor induces it.and partly by her maternal side, they all did nothing when she thought Diana was with Victor.
and because they delivered it.I think Nick never thought -why already knew as it was-it would be a good mother to Diana.
(02-26-2016, 10:23 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2016, 07:35 PM)Nightschade Wrote: [ -> ]Also, another thing about the Nick and Adalind as Juliette situation. People keep trying to frame it as if Adalind out of the blue decided that she was going to disguise herself as Juliette and take away Nick's grimm powers for revenge-- she thought that it was the only way that she would see her child. This doesn't make what happened okay, but because of this I view it as more of a rape by proxy situation with Victor as the perpetrator and Adalind and Nick both as victims.
I don't know where it's been said that Adalind's being framed. I was talking about Nick's response to being raped.
I did not say that Adalind was framed. I said that people frame that storyline a certain way. When people are talking about it, most people don't even really mention Victor's involvement even though he literally blackmailed her in to it. I also didn't say that that fact makes what she did right, but it is still the context of the situation.
(02-26-2016, 10:23 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]It's really fascinating to read just how far people will go to avoid the subject. Nick wasn't raped because he enjoyed it. Juliette is a pariah because she overreacted. And I admit it, I was on that bandwagon too. Until I realized that she had every right to be outraged. It was not only her lover that was used, she was the victim of the worst kind of identity theft.
I did not use any of these arguments in my original post because I do not believe any of these things. I think Juliette's reaction was perfectly reasonable. I agree that Nick's reaction should have been stronger. In the part of my post that you quoted, I specifically called it rape. I know a lot of people on this post have said things along this line, but I am not one of them, and so I took this more as a reply to everyone in general than to me specifically. If this was specifically to me and there was something in my original post that you were trying to discuss, I apologize, and we can definitely do that.
(02-26-2016, 10:23 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Adalind had the luxury of expending tremendous amounts of money, time, and energy to look for Diana. That seems to have faded fast. Now she's just mooning around, 'hoping' Diana is okay. So much for searching for her.
Nick never got the luxury of being outraged over himself, his home and lover being violated. He didn't get the luxury of being able to think the entire situation through, even to the point of tracing it back to the kidnapping or Adalind's attempted murder of Marie. He didn't even get the luxury of talking to Juliette about the embarrassment and humiliation he must have felt, thinking it was Juliette he was with and instead it turned out to be Adalind. Instead, he was whispering to Hank about how he wished he had his powers back even though he told Juliette he wanted to be normal.
What could have been a great story arc got buried in mediocrity.
All of this is a writing issue in my opinion. The writers include complicated emotional and ethical storylines for 'drama' and then never follow through on them because they drop them in favor of new storylines or to focus on something else that is going on. In my opinion, they could have had enough story for this season just focusing on the complex and toxic situations that they've created for these characters, but they decided to add in the uprising plot, which takes up almost all the time, so the characters threads were all just dropped. I'm sure they'll pick them up again when its convenient for them.
@syscrash you are spot on, The royals were not going to let Adalind keep Diana. That magical contract you'ere always on about would have had a clause in it about Diana 'being raised within these walls'. It would have been worded so that Adalind's maternal rights weren't abrogated - legally watertight so that Adalind couldn't challenge it later.
Now Adalaind has been busy being a mother to Kelly. Nick said to Monroe that she's a wonderful mother. Adalind has shown she can bring up a child. She now needs her own income, but she already proved she can be a good mother to Diana, as well as Kelly.She can now become more active in finding Diana and enlist Nick's support to recover her. Nick doesn't know about the royals needing to raise Diana, yet.
@irukandji, you keep saying Nick was raped. No, enjoyment doesn't make it not rape, it's consent that proves that it wasn't.
Nick thought that it was Juliette he was sleeping with. Once sex started, he'd have known it wasn't her, yet kept on going. That's consent.
Far from feeling humiliated he'd have thought how great he was that another women would want him so badly as to impersonate Juliette. Even losing his powers, wasn't too bad. He wanted a normal life with Juliette. That's what he told himself.