(12-17-2018, 09:10 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]You don't really think that anyone outside of the royals would accept that "contract" as legally binding, do you? I see it as a dropped plot point that nobody from the Verrat never came back to Portland to kill Adalind for not living up to her end of it, but as far as anyone else in Portland was concerned, that thing wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.
You keep bringing up the contract being legally binding. Legality has nothing to do with it. It's irrelevant that it was a dropped plot point. It's irrelevant whether Adalind lived up to it or not. It's irrelevant the anyone outside of the royals would accept it.
The fact that cannot be argued is that it was a magical agreement, signed by Adalind. The fact that she, and only she signed it, signified that she was considered the custodial parent and had the authority to hand Diana over in exchange for another hexenbiest.
I have read many a debate about why Adalind never lived up to her side of the agreement. I have read many a debate about why no revenge was taken against Adalind for failing to honor the agreement
I have never read anything that questioned Adalind's sole authority to sign it.
(12-17-2018, 04:27 PM)N_grimm Wrote: [ -> ]The motive for taking Diana was preventing the royals (or the resistance) from kidnaping and raising her in a way that threatened the world. If Kelly had not taken Diana with her, it would have been just a matter of time before the royals would have done it instead. It was obviously traumatic for Adalind, but the intention was keeping the world safe. As in most other cases in Grimm, the law and the justice system weren’t suitable to handle the situation. Most people didn’t even know about Wesen, so how could they understand that Kelly raising Diana was like preventing terrorists for getting access to a powerful weapon? Instead of saying Kelly was “not given authority”, you could say she had a duty as a Grimm to keep the world safe from Wesen. That was, after all, the concept of the show.
You're missing the point of my post. Adalind never voiced any opposition to going somewhere where she and her baby would be safe from both resistance and royals. It was Kelly who changed the plan and decided that she alone would be the one to take Diana somewhere safe.
Suddenly Adalind was left out of plans that she was originally part of. Why? She had done nothing to make anyone believe that she wanted to just hang around, allow the royals and resistance to fight over her baby, and let the world go to hell.
The fact that Adalind never suffered any consequences for failing to deliver her baby proves the worthlessness of that contract. Unless maybe the royals just missed some provision of it that said null and void if any of the parties tried to kill any of the other parties.
(12-18-2018, 06:41 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that Adalind never suffered any consequences for failing to deliver her baby proves the worthlessness of that contract. Unless maybe the royals just missed some provision of it that said null and void if any of the parties tried to kill any of the other parties.
Face, considering she lost Diana anyway only a few days later and a few weeks later was tortured in a dungeon for a couple of days, then she nearly got killed by Juliette and discovered a short while after that she was pregnant by her worst enemy, I’d say Adalind certainly did suffer the consequences. Yes she might not have suffered right away for breaking the contract however her life fell to pieces not long after fleeing Europe for Portland.
(12-17-2018, 11:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]You're missing the point of my post. Adalind never voiced any opposition to going somewhere where she and her baby would be safe from both resistance and royals. It was Kelly who changed the plan and decided that she alone would be the one to take Diana somewhere safe.
Suddenly Adalind was left out of plans that she was originally part of. Why? She had done nothing to make anyone believe that she wanted to just hang around, allow the royals and resistance to fight over her baby, and let the world go to hell.
When Kelly brought Adalind and Diana to Nicks house, she didn’t know who Adalind was and Adalind didn’t know who Kelly was. Kelly then learned that Adalind put Juliette in a coma and tried to kill her sister. Adalind learned that Kelly was Nicks mother and killed her mother. Adalind did change in late season 4/early season 5, but only after coming to Nick as a last option and discovering that he was willing to help her without demanding anything in return. She even believed Nick was going to kill her when he no longer needed the suppression potion to help Juliette.
You don’t believe for one moment that Kelly, Adalind and Diana was going to live a harmonic life where they constantly moved around so the royals could not track them? Adalind would probably try to take Diana and sneak away every time Kelly turned her back on them, just like she snuck out a window with the baby when staying at Nick’s house.
Added to the fact that Nick did not give a good opinion of Adalind.[/b]
(12-17-2018, 05:57 PM)dicappatore Wrote: [ -> ]N, do you get the feeling of SOME-one trying to blame Kelly herself for her demise? Am I the only one sensing Some-one trying to blame Kelly for what Juliette did? Talk about stretching the consequences of Kelly's actions to save the world from evil causing her demise is something else. If that was the case. Given the little time she did spend with Diana, she was still able to put her on the right path. Her sacrifice would make her a hero, not a looser, as SOME-one is trying to claim.
dicappatore, the attempt to push responsibility away from Juliette’ betrayal over to Kelly’s judgment and motive is my main objection in this discussion.
(12-18-2018, 06:41 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that Adalind never suffered any consequences for failing to deliver her baby proves the worthlessness of that contract. Unless maybe the royals just missed some provision of it that said null and void if any of the parties tried to kill any of the other parties.
Again, I am not talking about the provisions of the contract, the failure to follow them, etc.
The fact is, Adalind was acknowledged as the sole custodial parent to Diana. Because of that, there was a contract drawn up *with her*. Another fact, she signed the contract in blood and made no move to contest it.
Now, no one came into the middle of all of this and said "Wait! Renard should be here to sign too! After all he is also the parent!".
Adalind was established as the parent who had control of Diana.
(12-18-2018, 07:18 AM)N_grimm Wrote: [ -> ]When Kelly brought Adalind and Diana to Nicks house, she didn’t know who Adalind was and Adalind didn’t know who Kelly was. Kelly then learned that Adalind put Juliette in a coma and tried to kill her sister. Adalind learned that Kelly was Nicks mother and killed her mother. Adalind did change in late season 4/early season 5, but only after coming to Nick as a last option and discovering that he was willing to help her without demanding anything in return. She even believed Nick was going to kill her when he no longer needed the suppression potion to help Juliette.
You don’t believe for one moment that Kelly, Adalind and Diana was going to live a harmonic life where they constantly moved around so the royals could not track them? Adalind would probably try to take Diana and sneak away every time Kelly turned her back on them, just like she snuck out a window with the baby when staying at Nick’s house.
No one knows the extent of Kelly's mission because she (not anyone else) decided to change things as the result of issues with the destination. I assumed that once Kelly got Diana AND Adalind to their destination, Kelly would do what Kelly has always done. She would go back to being a grimm.
You are stating that Kelly found out some unsavory things about Adalind. Things which had nothing to do with Diana and her mother needing protection from the resistance and the royals. With all of this in mind, Kelly decided on her own that baby Diana needed to be with her and Adalind was out of the picture.
Doesn't that equate to Kelly taking authority she did not have and kidnapping Diana?
Just as a footnote, there was nothing in Adalind's demeanor, manner or voice that indicated for one minute that she was going to get even with Kelly for killing Catherine.
(12-18-2018, 07:07 AM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2018, 06:41 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that Adalind never suffered any consequences for failing to deliver her baby proves the worthlessness of that contract. Unless maybe the royals just missed some provision of it that said null and void if any of the parties tried to kill any of the other parties.
Face, considering she lost Diana anyway only a few days later and a few weeks later was tortured in a dungeon for a couple of days, then she nearly got killed by Juliette and discovered a short while after that she was pregnant by her worst enemy, I’d say Adalind certainly did suffer the consequences. Yes she might not have suffered right away for breaking the contract however her life fell to pieces not long after fleeing Europe for Portland.
People have a tendency to just see Adalind ending up with Nick and both her children to get her happy ending and judge the consequences based on it.
Because of that, they tend to overlook how much Adalind has truly suffered. There were serious consequences to her actions that caused her a lot of pain but I see that it doesn't matter time and time again because of how the show ended. She probably suffered just as much as any other character.
It really wasn't until season 5 that her life seemed to take a turn for the better and I say that knowing she was still without Diana and scared of sleeping alone. Then she was threatened by BC.
In season 6, Adalind had to worry about what was going on with Diana and the symbols. That lead to Z and Diana potentially becoming his child-bride while also being warned he was after Kelly. She probably wasn't even thinking about the end of the world at that point.
(12-18-2018, 10:50 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2018, 07:07 AM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2018, 06:41 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that Adalind never suffered any consequences for failing to deliver her baby proves the worthlessness of that contract. Unless maybe the royals just missed some provision of it that said null and void if any of the parties tried to kill any of the other parties.
Face, considering she lost Diana anyway only a few days later and a few weeks later was tortured in a dungeon for a couple of days, then she nearly got killed by Juliette and discovered a short while after that she was pregnant by her worst enemy, I’d say Adalind certainly did suffer the consequences. Yes she might not have suffered right away for breaking the contract however her life fell to pieces not long after fleeing Europe for Portland.
People have a tendency to just see Adalind ending up with Nick and both her children to get her happy ending and judge the consequences based on it.
Because of that, they tend to overlook how much Adalind has truly suffered. There were serious consequences to her actions that caused her a lot of pain but I see that it doesn't matter time and time again because of how the show ended. She probably suffered just as much as any other character.
It really wasn't until season 5 that her life seemed to take a turn for the better and I say that knowing she was still without Diana and scared of sleeping alone. Then she was threatened by BC.
In season 6, Adalind had to worry about what was going with Diana and the symbols. That lead to Z and Diana potentially becoming his child-bride while also being warned he was after Kelly. She probably wasn't even thinking about the end of the world at that point.
Hell Rell, excellent point and I’ve got to say dispite the scobbies having good intentions, thinking they were protecting Diana and the world, the kidnapping of Diana is the most despicable thing the scobbies have ever done on the show. Thats whyI felt zero sympathy for Nick when he lost his powers because the scobbies brought that whole situation upon themselves. They kidnapped Adalinds child and lied to her about it leaving her childless, homeless and desperate did they really not expect it to come back and bit them on the ass, they should have handled that whole situation a lot better.
Also that scene outside the precinct were a heartbroken Adalind cries breaks the glass is truly heartbreaking I don’t know how you can’t have sympathy for her after that scene.
(12-18-2018, 09:52 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Adalind was established as the parent who had control of Diana.
By the royals. And who else but the royals gives a whit about what they "acknowledge?"
That contract was only enforceable by two possible methods: by sending the Verrat in to kill someone who didn't abide by it, or by casting some sort of magical curse on someone who didn't abide by it.
And, yes, as long as you make any arguments at all about "custody," you
are talking about legalities.
The
only authority that can declare
anyone the custodial parent of a child is a court. It doesn't matter how many contracts other parties sign in blood.
(12-18-2018, 09:52 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't that equate to Kelly taking authority she did not have and kidnapping Diana?
No, it equates to Kelly doing the same thing she predicted the royals or the resistance would do, taking Diana and raising her to suit some "higher purpose" as she saw it. Kelly could never "take authority." One can only be given authority from someone who already has it.
(12-18-2018, 07:07 AM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Face, considering she lost Diana anyway only a few days later and a few weeks later was tortured in a dungeon for a couple of days, then she nearly got killed by Juliette and discovered a short while after that she was pregnant by her worst enemy, I’d say Adalind certainly did suffer the consequences. Yes she might not have suffered right away for breaking the contract however her life fell to pieces not long after fleeing Europe for Portland.
Adalind was Grimm's Wile E. Coyote from the first. There's no way of saying that anything bad that happened to her was the result of her violating a contract, or just because she was Adalind.
I would venture that the fact that Viktor showed up in Portland to make threats agains Sean and Adalind and never once argued that Adalind was going to suffer from a "contract curse" is an indication that the contract was nothing but a worthless piece of paper with some hocus-pocus to make it ignoring it seem ominous. Like fortune tellers saying that customers are cursed but they can remove the curse for money.