Grimm Forum

Watching the sturcture of the show. Each wesen type has it own culture with it's own rules and practices. It was noted that each type of wesen stays within it's own group. These groups would need to be large enough to protect against predator wesen and to prevent inbreeding. Where the real problem begins is for the rare wesen types like the frog girl. These communities would seem to be small. Grimm's seem to be nomads. They seem to roam from place to place chasing unexplained activity that is a threat to the normal population. Their task is to eliminate the threat then they move on.
Not sure if Portland is the exception or the norm for the congregation of so many different types of wesen. In most sci-fi shows it is explained why the congregation.
The closes thing you can compare wesen communities to would be segregation by race and religion. For many generations large cities had ghettos where the inhabitants where of the same ethnic or religious group. With less diversity in the rural areas. This may be the explanation for wesen distribution. There is really no equivalent to a Grimm in the real world. The closes equivalent was when holy men traveled from place to place preaching in an effort to route out sin.

(12-15-2016, 04:40 AM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Watching the sturcture of the show. Each wesen type has it own culture with it's own rules and practices. It was noted that each type of wesen stays within it's own group. These groups would need to be large enough to protect against predator wesen and to prevent inbreeding. Where the real problem begins is for the rare wesen types like the frog girl. These communities would seem to be small. Grimm's seem to be nomads. They seem to roam from place to place chasing unexplained activity that is a threat to the normal population. Their task is to eliminate the threat then they move on.
Not sure if Portland is the exception or the norm for the congregation of so many different types of wesen. In most sci-fi shows it is explained why the congregation.
The closes thing you can compare wesen communities to would be segregation by race and religion. For many generations large cities had ghettos where the inhabitants where of the same ethnic or religious group. With less diversity in the rural areas. This may be the explanation for wesen distribution. There is really no equivalent to a Grimm in the real world. The closes equivalent was when holy men traveled from place to place preaching in an effort to route out sin.

What if we look at the area. Most wesen appear to be some type animal so would a forest be the reason they are in Portland. Should we add this point to a worldview? Areas with forest would be a Grimm's hunting ground as that is were wesen would live. Now add that they also need to lead human lives also we might expect to see wesen where both happen, as a large human pop to blend in and forest for the wesen side?

Being close to a forest would also be in touch with nature for the "Wesen".

(12-14-2016, 10:45 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]In my case, schooled, in part, in cultural anthropology I view it as an artifact that may not be cultural in nature but has great historic value in terms of aiding in the translation of other texts.

So let me expand on that. I served for years on a committee to authenticate the interpretation of a translation of the dead seas scrolls. So there are some key words here. A translation is more or less a word mapping exercise, an interpretation is a translation that is given historic and cultural context. The artifacts in the trailer aid in interpretation of other artifacts that are not related to Grimms. Of a particular value are the books, because they would show you variants of grammar over the centuries and had a definite context.

Read the sentence below:

Jonathan was elated to lay in bed, with the taste of fag lingering on his lips.

The above needs no translation but it does require interpretation to give the sentence its correct meaning. Knowing it originates in the 1920s adds the context that allows you to interpret the translation. Jonathan is not a homosexual, but Jonathan does hand roll loose leaf cigarettes and enjoys smoking them in bed.

So to answer your question, to me the loss is in the centuries of linguistic nuance that could serve as an aid in interpreting the translations of other texts. The Grimm part, not so much.

Kindest regards...

I'm going to bring up something here that Bob Ballard, the scientist who discovered the Titanic, talked about with regard to historical value. I'm not quoting verbatim, just the bare bones. Ballard was outspoken against salvaging items from the ship. He felt there was nothing to be gained by salvaging because Titanic has a sister ship that had exactly the same artifacts on it. I can see his point. The Titanic is a fascinating icon, but in terms of history, it's recent.

I see the diaries as perhaps having more of a folk art type of appeal rather than a historical one. I understand what you're saying about a potential translation value, but at the same time, I question just how far back in time the diaries go. I suspect they are fairly modern since most people couldn't write and the Grimms are not known for keeping record of historical fact.

I would actually be much more interested in wesen record keeping because it seems they are more keenly oriented to details other than recording a dictionary of how to dispatch victims. They, in my opinion, are the true historians and if Juliette had torched a wesen diary, I would agree with you regarding its historical value.

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(12-15-2016, 03:28 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]I think the hardest think about understanding others people opinion is that you most of the time must try to first understand their worldview first. And those elements that affects it.

Indeed it does and with that I will bring up Nick. Adriano, you have mentioned Izzy's dislike (and mine) of the character. I think it's difficult for people to understand our dislike, because he is supposed to be the hero of the show. I can tell you my dislike stems from my worldview of law enforcement. I grew up in a law enforcement household. I got to do some cool things, like ride on a police Harley and shoot a revolver. We all developed a respect for firearms as a result. Dad could tell and still does tell some fascinating stories about what it was like to be a police officer and the eccentric oddity that is human nature. When my daughter got into some serious trouble, Dad's law enforcement friends lent a hand to help us. She turned her life around and is a supervisory nurse now with her own family, thanks to their help.

So when I watched this baby Diana dopey ass kidnapping, it's just infuriating. Cops know things and they know how to get things done. Both Nick and Renard should have put their heads together and come up with a way to hide the baby. Letting Nick's mom have her was just plain stupid.

I know it's nitpicky way of looking at the show but it absolutely stems back to my world view.

(12-16-2016, 04:51 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]So when I watched this baby Diana dopey ass kidnapping, it's just infuriating. Cops know things and they know how to get things done. Both Nick and Renard should have put their heads together and come up with a way to hide the baby. Letting Nick's mom have her was just plain stupid.

I strongly agree. In addition, that kidnapping led to Adalind taking Nick's powers and Juliette turning into a hexenbiest.

The thing people forget about the Grimm books. Unless the wesen is extenct. You could recreate the books by interviewing each wesen. Which is another question about the books. Why are the pages so old. How many pages where in other languages. Second why would Nick not start a new book instead of adding to an old bock. Why would there not be scientific information in the books.
People complain about losing the books. The information was out dated. There value was only in the age of the objects. Which was not that rare. Like people have mentioned for them to not be digital makes no sense. Since they do not print copies how do grimm's share information.

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Judging the show by a realistic world view ignores some major differences. The biggest you could never prove a wesen crime. So meting the show brings up many times. The show also deals with life and death differently then real life. For example when people fight they throw punches. When wesen fight the woge and rip out throates. In real life you can not threaten to execute people especially a police captain. On Grimm you can and actually show you can do it. With out any legal consequences. Example Nick set kenneth up. Instead of using the blood evidence of his mother death.
Because the situations do not follow a realistic logical path. You can not make realistic comparisons and evaluations.

Like saying killed someone who was dead?.The books went from hand to hand,every "GRIMM"will have added his writing.
Maybe there is nothing scientific because for them "WESEN" meant nothing.They were just animals.They had no deal with them,So I think that once dead they would examine the body of the "WESEN" in question.Nick is seen writing in a book,could have burned the book when Juliette burned the trailer?

(12-16-2016, 04:51 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I see the diaries as perhaps having more of a folk art type of appeal rather than a historical one. I understand what you're saying about a potential translation value, but at the same time, I question just how far back in time the diaries go. I suspect they are fairly modern since most people couldn't write and the Grimms are not known for keeping record of historical fact.

I never got the impression the books were appreciated for their connection to Nick’s heritage or their historical importance. Rather, Nick & the others mourned the loss of a readily available information source used to determine a Wesen’s strengths & weaknesses in order to speed up the killing process. The books were valued in the same way as the weapons & various pharmaceuticals housed in the trailer. To me, that seems to be what the Kesslers were doing - collecting, using, then passing down information to future Grimms in the Kessler family line.

What would Marie have done with the trailer & it’s contents had Nick not become a Grimm? Why did Josef Neboja collect and store the books, keys, and other Grimm items? If he intended to pass down knowledge to another Grimm, he was rather slow in process. If he intended to secret away information believed to be more dangerous than useful, he did a lousy job of ensuring no one would find it after his death. And without the luck of Monroe having an uncle who collected & sold rare books, Black Claw would have the Grimm Lineage and some of the keys, and Nick wouldn’t even know Josef Neboja and his treasure trove existed.

(12-16-2016, 05:35 PM)MarylikesGrimm Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-16-2016, 04:51 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]So when I watched this baby Diana dopey ass kidnapping, it's just infuriating. Cops know things and they know how to get things done. Both Nick and Renard should have put their heads together and come up with a way to hide the baby. Letting Nick's mom have her was just plain stupid.

I strongly agree. In addition, that kidnapping led to Adalind taking Nick's powers and Juliette turning into a hexenbiest.

(12-16-2016, 04:51 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I know it's nitpicky way of looking at the show but it absolutely stems back to my world view.

I don’t think it’s nitpicky, irukandji. We’re not likely to have an experience that would make living & surviving such a bizarre & violent lifestyle relatable. But even with fiction, as viewers we want the characters and their motivation & actions to be relatable. Everyone jumped on board with Kelly’s kidnapping scheme without hesitation, and not one of the four police officers stepped back to consider other options.

It was the same when Nick murdered Kenneth. Hank & Wu never questioned Nick setting up a person for murder or his motivation for doing so. They never considered their complicity in a criminal act. And this everyone thinking the same way mentality makes the characters so one-dimensional that their behavior appears cult-like and boring to watch.

You’re absolutely right, MarylikesGrimm. Kelly, Renard, and Nick & his gang are responsible for everything that happened after Diana’s kidnapping. But as with Hank & Wu aiding Nick in Kenneth’s murder, these characters are incapable of even considering that they might be wrong, much less acknowledging that they don’t have the moral or legal right to make these life & death decisions.

And before I’m reprimanded for not understanding the show and it’s intent… I get that the show is about a Grimm and a fairytale. But the creative team chose to make the central character a police officer who remained on the force and used his position to achieve his personal objectives as a Grimm. If the Grimm fairytale element was dropped there would still be a foundation for a show about corrupt cops and the civilians complicit in these criminal activities.

(12-16-2016, 05:43 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Why would there not be scientific information in the books.

I have often wondered that myself. The only reason I can come up with is that the grimms had no use for scientific information. The book is simply a definition of wesen and how to kill them.

(12-16-2016, 05:43 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Judging the show by a realistic world view ignores some major differences. The biggest you could never prove a wesen crime.

You could never prove a wesen crime because the series never went there, not because it couldn't be proven.

(12-16-2016, 05:43 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]The show also deals with life and death differently then real life. For example when people fight they throw punches. When wesen fight the woge and rip out throats. In real life you can not threaten to execute people especially a police captain. On Grimm you can and actually show you can do it. With out any legal consequences. Example Nick set kenneth up. Instead of using the blood evidence of his mother death.

If a man who has these extraordinary powers is supposed to be the hero of the series, he's expected to act like a hero. I would have applauded Nick if he felt the remotest conflict about being a cop and a Grimm and as a result stepped down from law enforcement and went into his own business. That shows integrity and a strength of character. He could make up his own rules then and go on to be a Grimm and fight however he wanted to fight.

(12-16-2016, 05:43 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Because the situations do not follow a realistic logical path. You can not make realistic comparisons and evaluations.

This is the fault of the creators. They make Nick a realistic cop in modern day Portland, a real city. He lives in a house, eats food, has sex, sleeps, breathes air and drives a car. He's a detective on the Portland PD. In others words, he does realistic things.

How many times have people compared him having sex with Adalind versus having sex with Juliette if we can't make realistic comparisons? The major problem with Grimm is not that Nick is a grimm. It's not that Nick is a cop. The problem is that Nick is a grimm and a cop.

If this is supposed to be based on the unrealistic and dealing with situations a grimm should deal with, then it all goes back to Nick making the simple choice. He should just be a grimm because the ethics and worldview of a police officer are in direct contradiction to those of a grimm.

You brought up Kenneth's death and this is an excellent example of a major screwup.

Now you can argue it would be murder if Nick was representing law enforcement or whether he was a civilian and you would be right.

But what about the path Nick willingly chose to get to those circumstances? He didn't throw away his badge and vow revenge. He instead chose the realistic role of a cop to obtain his vengeance.

So did Nick grow up in a world of corruption where the single most goal is the one, meaning himself? Or when he got these extraordinary powers, is that when he became focused on the one, and gave up focus on the many?

(12-17-2016, 08:17 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]And before I’m reprimanded for not understanding the show and it’s intent… I get that the show is about a Grimm and a fairytale. But the creative team chose to make the central character a police officer who remained on the force and used his position to achieve his personal objectives as a Grimm. If the Grimm fairytale element was dropped there would still be a foundation for a show about corrupt cops and the civilians complicit in these criminal activities.

I could not figure out how to surround that quote with little hearts...you are so very correct. Great post...

Hmmm, you and the JellyFish need to team up and get your own talk radio show. : )