(10-29-2017, 11:21 AM)silver Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 11:16 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 11:08 AM)silver Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 10:59 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 10:29 AM)silver Wrote: [ -> ]You never cease to amaze, Henry. Adalind had hex powers that she HAD TO KNOW very well may affect Nick and/or Juliette. Eve went in, with only the intent to get information - not separate Nick's Grimm power (THE key part of himself and his persona). Nothing Eve did caused anybody's death or immense changes to the persons involved, nor did she try to.
Adalind did know what having sex with Nick would do, that was the point because she was lead to believe that by carrying out the task, she would finally get to see her daughter. When Eve realised how intimate the relationship with Rachel was, she adjusted primary plans, what she was willing to do herself that night to accomplish her mission. None of the two women personally wanted to have sex with their targets (neither woke up that morning with a desire to have sex with their enemy just for kicks) but it was necessary if they would be successful in their personal mission. For Adalind, that was to finally see Diana for the first time since the day she was kidnapped an instruction she got from Viktor, so that in itself wasn't her intention either, for Eve, it was to discover what BC's plans were for/with Renard. How the two women carried out their mission shouldn't add or take away from what they intention was at the end of the day/night. Not once was Adalind acting out of selfish interest that day. She was acting out of a mother's desperation. When she left Nick's place she wasn't thrilled over what she'd done. She flew straight to Vienna to the man she believed had her daughter and instead of getting what she'd hopped for following his instructions, he threw her into a dungeon that warped her senses and abilities to punish her.
As I said earlier Nick and sadly Juliette reaped the consequences of stealing Diana away from her mother. Everything that happened stems from that one decision to separate mother and daughter without thinking of the consequences. Viktor took advantage of the truth and manipulated Adalind to punish Nick for succeeding where he had failed.
Does anybody remember what Sean said about what would happen if Adalind was given Diana? Just curious.
Nick didn't think Adalind would make a good mother. I'm not sure what Kelly believed just before she landed in Portland before they had to change course but it's apparent learning about Adalind's past with Nick influenced her decision, which influenced Sean's decision to agree to the kidnapping because suddenly they all believed Adalind would make a terrible mother to an all powerful child.
That's not the part I'm thinking of - Didn't Sean tell Adalind in his office that the Royals through Viktor, threatened death to Sean, his mother and Adalind if she decided to hold onto Diana and try to raise her? I'm pretty darned sure that had 100% bearing on the decision, plus remember what Kelly said to Nick that Diana's life would have either great potential for good or great potential for evil depending on where and by whom she would be raised.
I'm sure Viktor did threaten Sean and Elizabeth because of Diana. If Adalind's character wasn't seen as an impediment to raising Diana, they could have continued with the same plan of getting both mother and daughter to safety. The new plan was about fooling Viktor into thinking the Resistance had Diana and that meant taking her from Adalind. Once the plan was successful, they could have easily brought Adalind into the fold and reunited her with Diana (Viktor would have no means of de-grimming Nick and the royals wouldn't have a pissed off hexenbiest Juliette to betray Kelly to return to Portland with Diana) but they all chose to lie and sell the lie after Adalind begged them all to help her find Diana. They were the ones that pointed her in the direction of Viktor.
(10-29-2017, 11:32 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 11:21 AM)silver Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 11:16 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 11:08 AM)silver Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 10:59 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: [ -> ]Adalind did know what having sex with Nick would do, that was the point because she was lead to believe that by carrying out the task, she would finally get to see her daughter. When Eve realised how intimate the relationship with Rachel was, she adjusted primary plans, what she was willing to do herself that night to accomplish her mission. None of the two women personally wanted to have sex with their targets (neither woke up that morning with a desire to have sex with their enemy just for kicks) but it was necessary if they would be successful in their personal mission. For Adalind, that was to finally see Diana for the first time since the day she was kidnapped an instruction she got from Viktor, so that in itself wasn't her intention either, for Eve, it was to discover what BC's plans were for/with Renard. How the two women carried out their mission shouldn't add or take away from what they intention was at the end of the day/night. Not once was Adalind acting out of selfish interest that day. She was acting out of a mother's desperation. When she left Nick's place she wasn't thrilled over what she'd done. She flew straight to Vienna to the man she believed had her daughter and instead of getting what she'd hopped for following his instructions, he threw her into a dungeon that warped her senses and abilities to punish her.
As I said earlier Nick and sadly Juliette reaped the consequences of stealing Diana away from her mother. Everything that happened stems from that one decision to separate mother and daughter without thinking of the consequences. Viktor took advantage of the truth and manipulated Adalind to punish Nick for succeeding where he had failed.
Does anybody remember what Sean said about what would happen if Adalind was given Diana? Just curious.
Nick didn't think Adalind would make a good mother. I'm not sure what Kelly believed just before she landed in Portland before they had to change course but it's apparent learning about Adalind's past with Nick influenced her decision, which influenced Sean's decision to agree to the kidnapping because suddenly they all believed Adalind would make a terrible mother to an all powerful child.
That's not the part I'm thinking of - Didn't Sean tell Adalind in his office that the Royals through Viktor, threatened death to Sean, his mother and Adalind if she decided to hold onto Diana and try to raise her? I'm pretty darned sure that had 100% bearing on the decision, plus remember what Kelly said to Nick that Diana's life would have either great potential for good or great potential for evil depending on where and by whom she would be raised.
I'm sure Viktor did threaten Sean and Elizabeth because of Diana. If Adalind's character wasn't seen as an impediment to raising Diana, they could have continued with the same plan of getting both mother and daughter to safety. The new plan was about fooling Viktor into thinking the Resistance had Diana and that meant taking her from Adalind. Once the plan was successful, they could have easily brought Adalind into the fold and reunited her with Diana (Viktor would have no means of de-grimming Nick and the royals wouldn't have a pissed off hexenbiest Juliette to betray Kelly to return to Portland with Diana) but they all chose to lie and sell the lie after Adalind begged them all to help her find Diana. They were the ones that pointed her in the direction of Viktor.
So, did you not agree that Adalind was 'unfit' to raise Diana? You felt it was worth it to let Adalind into the fold and everything would be hunky-dory? Sean once said to Catherine (Adalind's mother) that Adalind has a mind of her own and alluding to the fact that Adalind has proven herself to be quite the loose canon and doesn't work / play well with others and is unpredictable. Another reason for Nick not to share about the holy stick they found in the Black Forest, even after she had 'settled down'.
Boys and Girls, here is the transcript of those three scenes.
________________________________________
S5, E16, The Believer, Scene: Eve and Rachel lay in bed.
________________________________________
Rachel: It's all right.
Eve: This has never happened to me before.
Rachel: Don't worry about it. Let's, um... let's start with your questions.
Eve: Yes, okay.
Rachel: And we can try again. Like we did last time. [She woges]
________________________________________
S5, E17 Inugami, Scene: Nick pulls over, and Eve telekinetically opens the passenger side door and gets in.
________________________________________
Nick: We're not gonna kill anyone, are we? 'Cause I'd like to know that up front.
Eve: Renard is cooperating with Black Claw.
Nick: Did he know that Dixon was gonna be assassinated?
Eve: Not at the time, but he does now.
Nick: How do you know that?
Eve: Rachel told me.
Nick: Rachel just flat out told you that Renard is involved with Black Claw? Why would she do that?
Eve: I slept with her.
Nick: I'm serious.
Eve: So am I. I was Sean Renard at the time. I didn't know how personal their relationship was.
Nick: So, Rachel was sleeping with the Captain and talking to you?
Eve: Yes.
Nick: That's a lot to unpack.
________________________________________
S5, E17 Inugami, Scene: Renard and Rachel sleep together.
________________________________________
Rachel: Well, that more than makes up for last time.
Renard: Wait, what?
Rachel: [She kisses Renard's shoulder] Exactly. Never even happened. [She grabs her tablet] Time for you to start thinking about settling down. When are you gonna pop the question?
Renard: Hmm.
Rachel: Voters need a married man with a happy family.
Renard: I don't have a family, happy or otherwise.
Rachel: Don't worry. You will.
“So, again, IMO, I reiterate what I said earlier.
Well, if referring to sleeping as just lying in a bed naked, yes, they did. If referring to sex? No, Eve as Sean couldn’t get it up. So, yes to sleeping, no to sex” I base this opinion on what Rachel says when she has sex with the real Sean after she was with Juliette;
Rachel:“Well, that more than makes up for last time.
FYI, when Nick tells Monroe and Rosalee, it was second hand, not directly from Juliette. So, just like in a courtroom, it’s inadmissible.
Lol. Here's more script for ya.
Quote: Nick: Or we don't ask. We do it. The same way Eve got all the information from Rachel.
Hank: Well, Eve slept with Rachel.
Eve: I was Renard at the time.
Hank: Yeah, but who are you gonna be this time? Rachel's dead, and we can't have two Renards out there.
Nick: Why not?
Wu: Nick, really? One Renard out there is more than enough.
Nick: Well, not if one of them is one of us. [To Eve] Do you still have the hat?
Eve: Yeah, I have it. But I don't know if I can go through that again.
Nick: No, not you. Me.
(10-29-2017, 03:01 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Silver , Adalind has proven herself a great mother just look at how well she looked after Kelly , cared for his every need made sure he was safe and healthy , so how can you say she wouldnt have been the same had she gotten To raise baby Diania. They had no right what so ever to steal her child in fact I dare say had she gotten the chance maybe Diania wouldn't have been so murderous. After all Kelly is far more of a killer than Adalind ,on the Grimm wiki kill list showing the number of kills the main charecters have made Adalind and Rosalee were tied last place with only two kills each. So how is Kelly any more fit to riase Diania than Adalind. She was never a lose canon who couldn't be trusted raising Kelly ,she was if anything too nurturing and overprotective of him. I do appreciate though at the time they didn't know how good of a mother she'd be ,so you can't really fault them for having they're doubts about Adalind but Kelly certainly wasn't a better option.
What I was trying to say, is that she's not trustworthy to the group and the group's agendas...not that that's always a 'good' thing, but intentions count and she could foul up everything again and again, if she was privy to all the important information/intel, because she is just as likely to use it for her own purposes - not always selfish, but she does have that rep.
Both 'good' and 'bad' mothers manage to have kids, and with or without the best upbringing lots of kids manage to live decent lives because life is just one big crapshoot, imho.
So, her being good or bad mother has nothing to do what I was talking about.
Was Rachel sleep talking? In the words of another poster from awhile ago.
Quote:Nick: How do you know that?
Eve: Rachel told me.
Nick: Rachel just flat out told you that Renard is involved with Black Claw? Why would she do that?
Eve: I slept with her.
Nick: I'm serious.
Eve: So am I. I was Sean Renard at the time. I didn't know how personal their relationship was.
Nick: So, Rachel was sleeping with the Captain and talking to you?
Eve: Yes.
It was TMI by the way. That's why Nick responded :
Quote:Nick: That's a lot to unpack.
(10-29-2017, 03:17 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Silver most of the things you are saying about her are right if your talking about the first four and half seasons but don't apply to the last two and half at all. She's changed it's about time you relised that, just like Eves changed she's more like the old Juliette again not hexen Juliette of season 4 or cold eve of season 5.
Yes, but I say about half is surface/appearances. She's never been a slouch on that score. So, then tell me why when Nick was showing Trubel the stick, did she agree whole-heartedly to not let Adalind in on it?
(10-29-2017, 03:19 PM)Devegs Wrote: [ -> ]Was Rachel sleep talking? In the words of another poster from awhile ago.
Quote:Nick: How do you know that?
Eve: Rachel told me.
Nick: Rachel just flat out told you that Renard is involved with Black Claw? Why would she do that?
Eve: I slept with her.
Nick: I'm serious.
Eve: So am I. I was Sean Renard at the time. I didn't know how personal their relationship was.
Nick: So, Rachel was sleeping with the Captain and talking to you?
Eve: Yes.
It was TMI by the way. That's why Nick responded :
Quote:Nick: That's a lot to unpack.
And it was a very funny line to end with.
(10-29-2017, 03:17 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Silver, most of the things you are saying about her are right if your talking about the first four and half seasons but don't apply to the last two and half at all. She's changed it's about time you realized that, just like Eves changed she's more like the old Juliette again not hexen Juliette of season 4 or cold eve of season 5.
Just to add to what Henry said. Some want to accredit Adalind drinking the suppression potion making her more humanistic. But I saw the change in Adalind as early as when she shows up in Renard’s office, to tell Nick for the 1st time she was pregnant with his child. From that point on, she became the nurturing mother that Juliette never became, no matter how much some will attest to Adalind’s short comings.
She became the woman some wished for Juliette to be. Well, it didn’t happen that way. Play and win the lottery, buy the rights to the show and redo the series like they redone Batman a few times over, otherwise, deal with it. Adalind is the good mother/wife/life partner to Nick and Juliette will die a lonely spinster life.
P.S. Correction, four and a half plus two and a half equals seven. There was only six seasons, so make that, the first three and a half seasons.
(10-29-2017, 03:32 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]It was beacuse of their past it took him a while to fully trust her with things like that . He clearly told her about the stick in season 6 so what does it matter. I don't get you Silver you claim Adalind has some agenda, Eve's no better than her they both done heinous things. The old Juliette was better than her I will admit to that but Eve's done as much bad things if not more than Adalind. So if they shouldn't fully trust Adalind then neither should they trust Eve.
No, you read my post wrong. I referred to the group's agenda(s).
I feel better now, because my whole life, I felt like I was almost alone in having rather poor reading comprehension skills.
(10-29-2017, 03:35 PM)dicappatore Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 03:17 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Silver, most of the things you are saying about her are right if your talking about the first four and half seasons but don't apply to the last two and half at all. She's changed it's about time you realized that, just like Eves changed she's more like the old Juliette again not hexen Juliette of season 4 or cold eve of season 5.
Just to add to what Henry said. Some want to accredit Adalind drinking the suppression potion making her more humanistic. But I saw the change in Adalind as early as when she shows up in Renard’s office, to tell Nick for the 1st time she was pregnant with his child. From that point on, she became the nurturing mother that Juliette never became, no matter how much some will attest to Adalind’s short comings.
She became the woman some wished for Juliette to be. Well, it didn’t happen that way. Play and win the lottery, buy the rights to the show and redo the series like they redone Batman a few times over, otherwise, deal with it. Adalind is the good mother/wife/life partner to Nick and Juliette will die a lonely spinster life.
P.S. Correction, four and a half plus two and a half equals seven. There was only six seasons, so make that, the first three and a half seasons.
Henry, what are you talking about? I pointed out that Trubel agreed with Nick that Adalind should not be let in on the fact that they found this healing wondrous stick when they went to Germany. She was the good little mother you keep talking about that has changed so much. But she still is not someone anybody wants to trust with their lives or important information.
(10-29-2017, 03:35 PM)dicappatore Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2017, 03:17 PM)Henry of green Wrote: [ -> ]Silver, most of the things you are saying about her are right if your talking about the first four and half seasons but don't apply to the last two and half at all. She's changed it's about time you realized that, just like Eves changed she's more like the old Juliette again not hexen Juliette of season 4 or cold eve of season 5.
Just to add to what Henry said. Some want to accredit Adalind drinking the suppression potion making her more humanistic. But I saw the change in Adalind as early as when she shows up in Renard’s office, to tell Nick for the 1st time she was pregnant with his child. From that point on, she became the nurturing mother that Juliette never became, no matter how much some will attest to Adalind’s short comings.
She became the woman some wished for Juliette to be. Well, it didn’t happen that way. Play and win the lottery, buy the rights to the show and redo the series like they redone Batman a few times over, otherwise, deal with it. Adalind is the good mother/wife/life partner to Nick and Juliette will die a lonely spinster life.
P.S. Correction, four and a half plus two and a half equals seven. There was only six seasons, so make that, the first three and a half seasons.
I'd like to get a load of your crystal ball, D.
I don’t understand what gives the group’s agenda priority and why Adalind needs to be trustworthy to their agenda unless it also serves her needs. Kelly wanted to have control of Diana and her powers. Nick and Renard wanted to protect themselves and the people they care about. Why exactly would Adalind be expected to make concessions for their benefit?
Adalind didn’t want to return to Portland, Kelly dragged her there while she kicked and screamed her objections. Adalind didn’t do anything while in Portland other than escape from her enemies and keep her baby with her.
The only person Adalind jeopardized in S5 was herself, not just for her children’s safety but for Nick’s also. Had Nick put as much effort into keeping his family safe as he did his stick, BC might not have been able to get Diana or Adalind and Kelly. He received two pieces of information in time to at least attempt prevention and chose not to.
I get that Nick assumed in S3 that Adalind was the same as before she gave birth. But considering that their decision to kidnap Diana led to S4’s death and devastation and the Royals got Diana anyway, and Nick did most of the lying and deceiving in S5, I’m confused as to why Adalind is the untrustworthy one.