Grimm Forum

(01-04-2018, 07:02 PM)thecdn Wrote: [ -> ]Hey! I can throw out random quotes as well!

Treaty of Tripoli, 1796

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cult...e-5659505/

Thomas Jefferson, together with several of his fellow founding fathers, was influenced by the principles of deism, a construct that envisioned a supreme being as a sort of watchmaker who had created the world but no longer intervened directly in daily life. A product of the Age of Enlightenment, Jefferson was keenly interested in science and the perplexing theological questions it raised. Although the author of the Declaration of Independence was one of the great champions of religious freedom, his belief system was sufficiently out of the mainstream that opponents in the 1800 presidential election labeled him a “howling Atheist.”

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Article VI Section (3) of the U.S. Constitution is the only reference to religion in the original Constitution and it says “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution: but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or Public Trust under the United States.

That was fun....

Hi CDN,
That is an odd set of quotes you selected:

Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 (3 Ramada I, A. H. 1211), and at Algiers January 3, 1797 (4 Rajab, A. H. 1211). Original in Arabic. Submitted to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. As to the ratification generally, see the notes. Proclaimed Jane 10, 1797.
It seems the Arabs were concerned about Christians when they drafted that document.
The Declaration of Independence relies upon the Laws of Nature and Nature's God. That is the foundation for the United States. God's laws apply to all His creation, Jews, Christians, Muslims and even Atheists.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cult...e-5659505/
You stopped too soon! The very next sentence from that article reads:

Quote:In fact, Jefferson was devoted to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You did find Article VI Section (3) of the U.S. Constitution. And yes CDN in the United States Jews, Christians, Muslims and even Atheists may hold public office. Yet the nation they represent shall forever be that nation founded on the Laws of Nature and Nature's God.

In your post #31 you list atrocities committed by "Christians." Can you locate a verse from the Bible where Jesus did any of those things or condoned another to do them?

You also claim to be a Canadian who lives in the US. To become a Citizen you must take an oath:

Quote:Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

I added the underline.
Shalom!
N G

(01-05-2018, 03:45 AM)dicappatore Wrote: [ -> ]I was just making sure you knew, I was a legal immigrant. I could't care less about your status.

Nor I yours. If you said you were an immigrant I would have assumed legal.

Quote:Then I need you to explain to me, if you see a Nativity Scene in public, how does it impose on you to believe in Christianity.

If it is on government property then it is illegal as government cannot endorse a religion. If it is on private property or church property I could care less.

Quote: Again, how can something you do not believe in effect you, impose on you, disturb you. Only a dictatorial type wold make such demands.

Wanting the law of the land to be followed makes me dictatorial?

Quote:As a pretty well read professional? Since most of the media is so balanced (Sarcasm Here), I am sure you get a good balance of biased news.

We all have our biases. I saw a post where you ranted about the Huffington Post and George Soros so I'll guess you watch Fox News and think Trump is actually truthful.

Quote:As for this country not being the best is your opinion not a fact. Since this country is the number one sought country wanted by immigrants, makes it the greatest country on the planet.

No, it doesn't.

Quote:As for your family choosing to live here, you must have a good reason which I am sure it's not because it is the worst country to live in.

Of course it's not the worst. But blindly believing it's the best isn't correct either.

Quote:My ramblings are about your delusion of Christians forcing their beliefs on you. I do agree, part of most religions have a policy to spread the word. But if you are going to accuse Christians imposing their beliefs on others? When was the last time a Christian took an atheist to court, to force Christianity on one?

I'll type slow so you can follow. It's not about individual christians forcing their religion on me - that wouldn't happen and the attempt would be humourous. It's about christians in this country trying to get laws passed that reflect their beliefs - thus imposing those beliefs on others. What reason could one oppose gay marriage other than religion? Abortion? Gay adoption? Gays in the military? Stem cell research?

I hardly spoke about religion when I lived in Canada because there was little reason to. Most theists kept their religion to themselves and didn't try to have policies made based on their beliefs. If theists in the US did the same you wouldn't be hearing from us mean old atheists.

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(01-05-2018, 06:49 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]The Declaration of Independence relies upon the Laws of Nature and Nature's God.

"Nature's God" - a deist concept, not a christian one.

Quote:https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cult...e-5659505/
You stopped too soon! The very next sentence from that article reads:

Quote:In fact, Jefferson was devoted to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The teachings, not the divinity of Jesus. The Jefferson Bible was him cutting out what he considered the good stuff, the teachings and nice statements and removing the divine and supernatural aspects. Not something a christian would do, but certainly something a deist would.

Quote:In your post #31 you list atrocities committed by "Christians." Can you locate a verse from the Bible where Jesus did any of those things or condoned another to do them?

What has that got to do with anything? It is the actions of those who claim to speak in his name that are causing the problems today.

Quote:You also claim to be a Canadian who lives in the US. To become a Citizen you must take an oath:

Quote:Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/file...apter5.pdf

"If you are unable or unwilling to take the oath with the words "on oath" and "so help me God" included, you must notify USCIS that you wish to take a modified Oath of Allegiance. Applicants are not required to provide any evidence or testimony to support a request for this type of modification."

No, I would not have swear to any god.

To all my fellow denizens of the universe of Grimm: Speaking only for myself, I became a resident here and hope to remain here, away from the strife and division and issues of the real universe. Please do not bring in names or events happening in your real universe to this wonderful and beautiful world. You can bring in your ideas and moral constructs if you wish, but please, if you wish to discus the real universe, there are sites to go for that. Be careful, the Grimm is watching and judging!!!

(01-05-2018, 07:12 AM)thecdn Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:In your post #31 you list atrocities committed by "Christians." Can you locate a verse from the Bible where Jesus did any of those things or condoned another to do them?

What has that got to do with anything? It is the actions of those who claim to speak in his name that are causing the problems today.

CDN,
So you cannot find such a verse?
For you and all on Forum I post these words:

Quote: John 13:34-35New International Version (NIV)

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

I find more comfort and direction in the teaching of Jesus than in the hatred of atheists.

N G

(01-05-2018, 09:59 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]So you cannot find such a verse?

Well, there is the strange:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

But for the most part he leaves god to say all the terrible things like wiping out towns and tribes and killing everyone except for young females who have not known men. Sort of like a good cop/bad cop thing.

Quote:For you and all on Forum I post these words:

Quote: John 13:34-35New International Version (NIV)

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Well that certainly sounds nice but what has that got to do with the reality of all the hatred and bigotry expressed by so many christians in the US today? I don't see how you can love someone while wanting to deny them their basic human rights.

Quote:I find more comfort and direction in the teaching of Jesus than in the hatred of atheists.

That's nice for you but I don't think any atheist cares if you take comfort and direction in anything they say. Your statement is meaningless.

(01-07-2018, 11:28 AM)thecdn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-05-2018, 09:59 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]So you cannot find such a verse?

Well, there is the strange:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

But for the most part he leaves god to say all the terrible things like wiping out towns and tribes and killing everyone except for young females who have not known men. Sort of like a good cop/bad cop thing.

Quote:For you and all on Forum I post these words:

Quote: John 13:34-35New International Version (NIV)

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Well that certainly sounds nice but what has that got to do with the reality of all the hatred and bigotry expressed by so many christians in the US today? I don't see how you can love someone while wanting to deny them their basic human rights.

Quote:I find more comfort and direction in the teaching of Jesus than in the hatred of atheists.

That's nice for you but I don't think any atheist cares if you take comfort and direction in anything they say. Your statement is meaningless.

and you are BORING! My quote, not a biblical one.

(12-30-2017, 12:58 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]Kindly nore the title of the thread was prefaced with:

For the religious:

for a reason. I wanted to give the theologically oriented an exclusionary thread to discuss the implication of the wesen world and various religions without being disparaged. I would ask that you respect this.

Thank you.

As I am one of the people who took this very interesting topic off track, I would like to try and bring up a discussion with regard to the term, 'children of God'.

I have been doing some reading on the term, and in a short paraphrasing, a child of God is one who has come to redemption through faith in Jesus.

There was an episode from Grimm called "The Believer", in which a wesen woged into a devil like form in order to cleanse his congregation of their sins. The preacher (Dwight) then changes back into his human form and declares the congregation free from sin.

All during this time the event is being recorded, which of course, leads to the eventual downfall of Dwight.

The scoobies talk to Dwight about his wesen abilities, and Dwight tells them he's not doing anything wrong. Dealing hope is not illegal. He believes he is using his wesen abilities for good.

His former wife believes him to be Satan, who can revert to human form. In a direct tribute to Judas, gold coins are exchanged in order for Dwight's ex-wife to kidnap him, tie him down, and the faithful then spear him with hot pokers in order to save his soul and free him from Satan. It seems this is a direct tribute to Jesus as well.

I brought this particular episode up because behind Dwight is a cross, which is a Christian symbol. This does show some proof that wesen do indeed have faith in Jesus, and would be in fact, "children of God".

Or, does it? Nick, Wu and Hank seemed to be contemptuous of anyone going to a tent revival.

I am adding something else to this.....Are grimms contemptuous of faith in God?

(01-07-2018, 08:51 PM)dicappatore Wrote: [ -> ]and you are BORING! My quote, not a biblical one.

Sorry, I know reality isn't as exciting as fantasy.

(01-07-2018, 11:28 AM)thecdn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-05-2018, 09:59 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]So you cannot find such a verse?

Well, there is the strange:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

Hi CDN,
Did you research the verse you quoted? There are volumes of resources, for example:
https://rcg.org/questions/p102.a.html

Quote:What did Christ mean when He said, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple”?

This statement from Christ is found in Luke 14:26 (New King James Version). Yet, He had previously given the charge, “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you…just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them” (6:27, 31-32). Here, Christ was giving some of the elementary guidelines to being a Christian. In verse 29, He introduced the principle of “turning the other cheek.”

Many “higher critics” target certain scriptures and use them to try to discredit the Bible, claiming that it contradicts itself. But John 10:35 plainly shows that God’s Word does not contradict itself. Luke 14:26 is an example of a scripture cited by such critics in order to “prove their point.” But is it contradictory?

To fully understand Christ’s meaning here, the meaning of the Greek word translated “hate” must be examined. In this verse, the original Greek word is miseo, meaning “to love less” (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible).

Therefore, Christ is saying that anyone following Him, making a commitment to the Christian way of life, must love Him more than family and friends, and even life itself. Christ stated, “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends…I have called you friends” (John 15:13, 15). God demonstrated this love for us in that “…while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).

When summing up the principles of God’s Law (which He calls “holy, just and good”—Rom. 7:12), Christ summed up the last six commandments with the simple statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:39). But the first four He summarized as “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind” (vs. 37). Anyone who loves God, and the way of life He commands and offers, will not bend on His principles. Such an individual places his relationship with God before any and all relationships with other people.

The conclusion of the whole matter, as Solomon wrote, in Ecclesiastes 12:13, is that we are to “…Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole…man.” In Matthew 19:29, Christ pronounced the ultimate reward for those who sacrifice in this life in order to live God’s Way: “And every one that has forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

You chose to ignore the that hungry are fed, homeless given shelter, the sick healed every day in the name of Jesus Christ.

Peace,

N G

(01-08-2018, 05:18 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I brought this particular episode up because behind Dwight is a cross, which is a Christian symbol. This does show some proof that wesen do indeed have faith in Jesus, and would be in fact, "children of God".

Or, does it? Nick, Wu and Hank seemed to be contemptuous of anyone going to a tent revival.

I am adding something else to this.....Are grimms contemptuous of faith in God?

You have taken Dwightss cross and Nicks' apparent attitude toward faith and decreed that wesen have faith in jesus and grimms are contemptuous of faith.

Painting pretty broad strokes aren't you? Isn't it likely there are wesen and grimms spread across the faith spectrum?

If aliens came to Earth and interviewed me it would be all right for them to determine that all humans are atheists?

(Being contemptuous of people who go to a tent revival is a far cry from being contemptuous of all people of faith.)