Grimm Forum

I doubt anyone in Nick’s circle is acting as a double agent. It sounds more complicated than the writers would want to deal with. The only two I would suspect is Renard & Trubel.

Renard because he’d sacrifice anyone if it benefited him, but if it is Renard, the writers have avoided any insinuation of that. That doesn’t mean the writers won’t try to surprise us later in the season. They like yanking the veil off big surprises - even when they’re stupid and unnecessary surprises.

Trouble because it’s made clear in 5.6 that she has acclimated to her role as an HW agent and is clearly in the know of HW’s surveillance of Nick & Adalind, the actual intel that was gathered, and HW’s presumed intentions regarding that information.

Chavez first suspected Trubel was a Grimm. Chavez’ team followed, kidnapped, and ultimately, Chavez recruited Trubel. Chavez became Trubel’s handler. It makes since that Chavez would discuss intel gathered on Nick and those in his circle with Trubel in order to fine tune the information. So it also makes sense that Trubel has been in the know to some degree about Nick’s circumstances since joining HW and going on assignments.

(01-10-2016, 08:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]The point of the whole story arc with Chavez was to show that Nick just dodged a bullet. He didn't want Chavez finding out he was a Grimm and she didn't. Chavez's suspicions were on Trubel, not Nick.
I think Chavez probably did have the house monitored for as long as Trubel remained there.

Once Trubel left, so did the FBI. There would be no need for Chavez to continue watching Nick or Juliette.

In episode 5.6 Adalind asks Trubel how long HW has been watching Nick. Trubel tells Adalind HW has been watching Nick since she killed Weston Steward (episode 3.22) and that they are watching Adalind too.

Meisner however…

In 4.22 Meisner kills the King, saves Diana, and hides or destroys the helicopter - nothing prompts us to infer this is anything other than Meisner/the Resistance saving Diana again from the Royals and Meisner getting some of the revenge he spoke to Adalind about in episode 3.15.

Other than his brief conversation with Renard about Diana and the King, Meisner’s function in season 5 episodes 1- 4 appear to be about specific reconnaissance and clean up - keeping HW’s presence & activities out of public eye while tracking Black Claw’s activities & progression.

He likely trained with Trubel, honed her natural fighting skills, and taught her to perform as an agent and not just a Grimm. It’s obvious one of Meisner’s assignments was the Juliette/Eve project. But his involvement with Trubel or Juliette/Eve doesn’t necessarily indicate he is in the know about all the intel Trubel is aware of. Otherwise, why would he be so shocked that Adalind answered Chavez’ phone?

Greenwalt & Kouf said 5.7 would reveal the Juliette/Eve back-story. Maybe it will also reveal whether Trubel was acting as a double agent for HW or if her conflicting loyalties to Nick and HW trapped her between a rock and a hard place.

(01-09-2016, 08:46 AM)eric Wrote: [ -> ]All this talk about Juliette slumming with Nick, what is it based on? Was there ever mention of her high born status before becoming a DVM? If she was from a wealthy or well to do family, why did she have to work her way through school? Maybe she was born on a dirt farm in the Southwest, which would explain her grandmother speaking Spanish and loving animals from an early age. We know she dated a lot of guys in college. Maybe a relative-father, uncle, grandfather-was a cop and that is why she was attracted to Nick, besides his being good looking and "healthy". These questions were never answered because they would have cluttered up Seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4. There is only 45 minutes of airtime in a show. We know about her grandmother because the info was needed for La Llorona. When the series ends, maybe one of the creators will write a novel and answer all questions--until then we can only speculate to our hearts' content.

I cannot say that I disagree more. Other shows are able to develop their characters in their allotted time frames without cluttering up the show.

I let the "suck" character development slide for a long time simply because I no longer watched network television. Grimm was the only new show I watched since the digital conversion and that was simply because it was available on-line. Hence I did not realize how bad it really was in terms of the character development. But then westarted to watch other modern series on DVD:

• Homeland
  
• Outlander
  
• American Horror Story
  

in each of these series the characters are fleshed out, you know their backgrounds and they are developed cleverly in a season. Cut to Grimm where after 4 full seasons we still don't know much about many of the characters. Monroe is clearly the most fleshed out, then Rosalee and Truble. They really did an excellent job with Truble giving us enough in a few short episodes to paint a picture of her and leaving enough dangling that they can further develop and refine the character.

The writers made choices. Instead of developing characters they chose bizarre subplots that so far have lead no where (keys etc) and inane developments like super powered fast growing babies. The series suffered as a result so they felt to need to reboot a series that never even completed its initial storyline nor fleshed out the characters.


Here is in a nushell. The main character is so underdeveloped I really could not care if he lives or dies. I don’t know who Nick is, but what I do know is not flattering once you look beyond the surface. Nick comes across tome as a self-centered, moral less socio-path. I have no buy in with him, he is not a sympathetic character at all, he is simply a central figure stories develop around.

So I reject the premise that developing characters clutters up the show. The three aforementioned shows demonstrate it can be done, Grimm just chose not to do it. Hence you have a series that finds the need to reboot itself in only its 5th season.

As for slumming, it is speculation. Speculation induced by the giant void that are the characters of the series.

Regards...

(01-10-2016, 10:04 AM)Robyn Wrote: [ -> ]In episode 5.6 Adalind asks Trubel how long HW has been watching Nick. Trubel tells Adalind HW has been watching Nick since she killed Weston Steward (episode 3.22) and that they are watching Adalind too.

I know. I remember Trubel saying that. But I was talking about the FBI not the Wall. They are two different organizations. Nick knew way before all of this occurred that Chavez was with some secret organization because Trubel told him. However, he couldn't connect her to any organization because he had nothing to go on.

I'm sure Chavez was aware that Trubel would spill the beans back to Nick once she let Trubel go. It's unlikely then that Chavez would head the case to find out about Weston's death and also be the one assigned by the Wall to watch Nick. It would be way too risky for her. Trubel said the Wall was watching Nick. They probably were but it's obvious they weren't watching all that closely. If they were, Nick would have spotted something out of the ordinary or mentioned a feeling of being watched.

But with all of this, I don't recall Trubel making any admissions about Juliette, other than to say she didn't know where the body was. So the question remains. Who tipped them off and how were they convinced Juliette would be valuable to their organization?

(01-10-2016, 11:12 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]But with all of this, I don't recall Trubel making any admissions about Juliette, other than to say she didn't know where the body was. So the question remains. Who tipped them off and how were they convinced Juliette would be valuable to their organization?

I think it was the underwear gnomes from SouthPark.

Underpants Gnomes

I think they were angry when they found out that the new skanky Juliette no longer wore underwear so they set her up in retaliation. LOL!

(01-10-2016, 08:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]So the way I see it, we're back to square one. In order for the Wall to take such an interest in Juliette, someone had to report her to them and that someone had to have such influence that they couldn't ignore the information.

Irukandji, I was thinking about this affirmation. I agree but I think it is incomplete... Someone to give information about Juliette had to be someone with influence inside as you said. I agree with you on that...

But this person should be someone with knowledge enough to see Juliette 's power and to preview her full capabilities. I can't see this in no one in the group. For all of them, Juliette became a hexanbiest, but none of them realized how powerful she really was. I don't think any of them could look at Juliette and say: oh, the HW can transform her in a super weapon. Nor even Trubel because she didn't had enough time to learn about Juliette.

Pause for an explanation : what I will wrote now is not to give answers. It is to raise more questions.


Continue...

There were in the show only one person with enough knowledge about hexanbiest capable to test Juliette and see what Juliette would be able to do and become.

Actually this person tested Juliette and saw her power and saw her full potential.

This person is Henrietta. She is the only one that saw Juliette full power... She is the only one with knowledge enough to say: Juliette can be transformed in the most powerful hexanbiest ever.

She died, but she could have give information about Juliette before she dies.

But as I said, it raises more questions then answers... But unless the HW has a hexanbiest like Henrietta with them to analyze and test Juliette, this plot must pass somehow through Henrietta.

Thoughts????

(01-10-2016, 01:01 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-10-2016, 08:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]So the way I see it, we're back to square one. In order for the Wall to take such an interest in Juliette, someone had to report her to them and that someone had to have such influence that they couldn't ignore the information.

Irukandji, I was thinking about this affirmation. I agree but I think it is incomplete... Someone to give information about Juliette had to be someone with influence inside as you said. I agree with you on that...

But this person should be someone with knowledge enough to see Juliette 's power and to preview her full capabilities. I can't see this in no one in the group. For all of them, Juliette became a hexanbiest, but none of them realized how powerful she really was. I don't think any of them could look at Juliette and say: oh, the HW can transform her in a super weapon. Nor even Trubel because she didn't had enough time to learn about Juliette.

Pause for an explanation : what I will wrote now is not to give answers. It is to raise more questions.


Continue...

There were in the show only one person with enough knowledge about hexanbiest capable to test Juliette and see what Juliette would be able to do and become.

Actually this person tested Juliette and saw her power and saw her full potential.

This person is Henrietta. She is the only one that saw Juliette full power... She is the only one with knowledge enough to say: Juliette can be transformed in the most powerful hexanbiest ever.

She died, but she could have give information about Juliette before she dies.

But as I said, it raises more questions then answers... But unless the HW has a hexanbiest like Henrietta with them to analyze and test Juliette, this plot must pass somehow through Henrietta.

Thoughts????

The best answer yet on who betrayed Juliette to HW and the timeline gives HW time to set up the watch. Never even crossed my mind. We have no background on Henrietta she may have been with HW for years. Beside we know she help Elizabeth and Sean so she had contact with the resistance also, a double connection maybe.

(01-10-2016, 01:22 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]The best answer yet on who betrayed Juliette to HW and the timeline gives HW time to set up the watch. Never even crossed my mind. We have no background on Henrietta she may have been with HW for years. Beside we know she help Elizabeth and Sean so she had contact with the resistance also, a double connection maybe.

Jsgrimm45...
I was just thinking about the fact Henrietta tested Juliette and knew her full potential.

You added more important elements. Maybe Henrietta had connections with the resistance from when she help Sean to run away from the royals.

If she knew some members of the resistance, it is possible she knew Meisner... If that is true, Henrietta connects Juliette to Meisner.. And Meisner connects Juliette to the HW.

(01-10-2016, 01:01 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]Irukandji, I was thinking about this affirmation. I agree but I think it is incomplete... Someone to give information about Juliette had to be someone with influence inside as you said. I agree with you on that...

But this person should be someone with knowledge enough to see Juliette 's power and to preview her full capabilities. I can't see this in no one in the group. For all of them, Juliette became a hexanbiest, but none of them realized how powerful she really was. I don't think any of them could look at Juliette and say: oh, the HW can transform her in a super weapon. Nor even Trubel because she didn't had enough time to learn about Juliette.

Pause for an explanation : what I will wrote now is not to give answers. It is to raise more questions.


Continue...

There were in the show only one person with enough knowledge about hexanbiest capable to test Juliette and see what Juliette would be able to do and become.

Actually this person tested Juliette and saw her power and saw her full potential.

This person is Henrietta. She is the only one that saw Juliette full power... She is the only one with knowledge enough to say: Juliette can be transformed in the most powerful hexanbiest ever.

She died, but she could have give information about Juliette before she dies.

But as I said, it raises more questions then answers... But unless the HW has a hexanbiest like Henrietta with them to analyze and test Juliette, this plot must pass somehow through Henrietta.

Thoughts????

I think it's an interesting angle, and I was trying to find ways to support it, but I can't. Here's why. The Wall didn't know Nick was a Grimm until he told them.

But Henrietta knew Nick was a Grimm without doing a thing. If she was with the Wall, here was a valuable asset right in front of her. It would make more sense that she would report Nick to the Wall and not say anything about Juliette.

(01-10-2016, 03:23 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's an interesting angle, and I was trying to find ways to support it, but I can't. Here's why. The Wall didn't know Nick was a Grimm until he told them.

But Henrietta knew Nick was a Grimm without doing a thing. If she was with the Wall, here was a valuable asset right in front of her. It would make more sense that she would report Nick to the Wall and not say anything about Juliette.

I agree with on that....

But...

I will copy my self now...

It didn't look like to me that Chavez was surprised when Nick told her he is a Grimm. As far as I remember, she didn't explained much at the phone when she said she was getting Nick to the meeting. It was like the one in the phone already knew about Nick.

What if Henrietta told Chavez about Juliette, Nick and the full process just after she tested Juliette?

Chavez would start to track both to confirm the information.

Juliette would being confirmed in the situations like the bar incident. But Nick Chavez wouldn't have enough information to confirm he is a Grimm.

What if the plan was not only get Juliette and Trubel but also to test if Nick is a Grimm?

Now think about it. The HW enter Nick's house, get Trubel and Juliette body with the intention to clean up all the crime scene. But they left behind a police detective... For what?

The logical action would be to kill Nick and eliminate any evidence... Because it is clear Nick would try to find out what happened...

Unless that was the plan. I think Chavez knew about Nick and left him there because she wanted him to investigate and to find out she did that. Think about : all the good cleaning was the key for Nick to know that was a professional action.

So my full theory now is:

Henrietta informed the HW about Juliette and Nick.

The HW got Trubel and Juliette and left a hide message to Nick (the cleaning).

Nick found Chavez and showed her he is a Grimm.

Chavez had the confirmation she needed and keep going with the rest of the plan: Bring Nick inside the HW.

I don't think it closes all the holes in the size of the universe .

But I think now we can try to close some of the moon holes.

What do you think?

(01-10-2016, 04:06 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with on that....

But...

I will copy my self now...

It didn't look like to me that Chavez was surprised when Nick told her he is a Grimm. As far as I remember, she didn't explained much at the phone when she said she was getting Nick to the meeting. It was like the one in the phone already knew about Nick.

What if Henrietta told Chavez about Juliette, Nick and the full process just after she tested Juliette?

Chavez would start to track both to confirm the information.

Juliette would being confirmed in the situations like the bar incident. But Nick Chavez wouldn't have enough information to confirm he is a Grimm.

What if the plan was not only get Juliette and Trubel but also to test if Nick is a Grimm?

Now think about it. The HW enter Nick's house, get Trubel and Juliette body with the intention to clean up all the crime scene. But they left behind a police detective... For what?

The logical action would be to kill Nick and eliminate any evidence... Because it is clear Nick would try to find out what happened...

Unless that was the plan. I think Chavez knew about Nick and left him there because she wanted him to investigate and to find out she did that. Think about : all the good cleaning was the key for Nick to know that was a professional action.

So my full theory now is:

Henrietta informed the HW about Juliette and Nick.

The HW got Trubel and Juliette and left a hide message to Nick (the cleaning).

Nick found Chavez and showed her he is a Grimm.

Chavez had the confirmation she needed and keep going with the rest of the plan: Bring Nick inside the HW.

I don't think it closes all the holes in the size of the universe .

But I think now we can try to close some of the moon holes.

What do you think?

Adriano, I still don't think there's a connection with Henrietta because the Grimm writers did not even hint at a connection with Henrietta.

On the contrary side of the coin, they made sure we got an absolute connection when the HW people called Chavez. She clearly confirmed over the phone that she was wrong, and that Nick was a Grimm. She also reiterated that she was positive and that she was bringing him in.

Members of the HW were there when she drove up with Nick. That tells me they wanted to see him. It also tells me that Chavez was not hiding anything or relating some kind of code over the phone. She was telling the truth.

However, I really wouldn't have minded Henrietta as an angle here. I really liked her and was miffed that she was killed after only a couple of episodes. And as the result of all things, during that stupid Jack the Ripper story arc. Grimm really goes in some dumb directions at times.

But what about Elizabeth?