Grimm Forum

hey guys,
I just wondered if anyone on here likes Game Of Thrones? I think its a great series and can't wait for season 6 my favourite characters have to be Tyrion and Khaleesi.

My plan was to read all the books first. I bought the first one and started reading it but never finished it. There were some things about it that I didn't like. But I keep hearing good things about it. Maybe someday I'll give it another try.

Of the books, yes. The HBO series not so much. I didn't like the changes they made from the books. IMAO they were NOT improvements!

(08-26-2015, 09:18 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: [ -> ]Of the books, yes. The HBO series not so much. I didn't like the changes they made from the books. IMAO they were NOT improvements!

I didn't read the books and I hated season 5 so I can only imagine how you felt. I hate when characters are completely rewritten just to sell the current plot.

Despite the uproar, I still don't think they get criticized enough for what they did with Sansa this season. I don't know how anyone can analyze that plot and tell me it made any sense for her to marry Ramsay or for LF to not know about him and be perfectly fine with not only giving her away but leaving her there alone. Was getting Sansa raped so important that they destroyed LF and Sansa's characters while downplaying Ramsay's reputation? The show is no longer great because it has become too sensationalized.

Where is the complexity of the first few seasons? Every character has been dumbed down and no longer has any depth. The priority is now on shocking moments instead of good characterization and storytelling. Ramsay is a super villain, Tyrion is worshipped, and Bronn is still around for nothing but pure fanservice. To be honest, Tyrion could fit into that category as well. And I hope that the show never gets away with their poor choices on the grounds of "realism" ever again. There was nothing realistic about Ramsay, Tyrion, or a host of other characters stories this past season.

(03-12-2016, 12:09 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-26-2015, 09:18 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: [ -> ]Of the books, yes. The HBO series not so much. I didn't like the changes they made from the books. IMAO they were NOT improvements!

I didn't read the books and I hated season 5 so I can only imagine how you felt. I hate when characters are completely rewritten just to sell the current plot.

Despite the uproar, I still don't think they get criticized enough for what they did with Sansa this season. I don't know how anyone can analyze that plot and tell me it made any sense for her to marry Ramsay or for LF to not know about him and be perfectly fine with not only giving her away but leaving her there alone. Was getting Sansa raped so important that they destroyed LF and Sansa's characters while downplaying Ramsay's reputation? The show is no longer great because it has become too sensationalized.

Where is the complexity of the first few seasons? Every character has been dumbed down and no longer has any depth. The priority is now on shocking moments instead of good characterization and storytelling. Ramsay is a super villain, Tyrion is worshipped, and Bronn is still around for nothing but pure fanservice. To be honest, Tyrion could fit into that category as well. And I hope that the show never gets away with their poor choices on the grounds of "realism" ever again. There was nothing realistic about Ramsay, Tyrion, or a host of other characters stories this past season.

The changes HBo made after S1, which actually followed the first book pretty well, were not improvements. And I didn't care for the gratuitous sex they threw in either. I am NOT a prude, there was sex in the novels, and sex can be an important part of a story.

But, in the HBO series it's: "Look people f$%^ing, because, people f$%^ing! Now, that's entertainment!" Give me a break!

(03-12-2016, 12:00 PM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-12-2016, 12:09 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-26-2015, 09:18 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: [ -> ]Of the books, yes. The HBO series not so much. I didn't like the changes they made from the books. IMAO they were NOT improvements!

I didn't read the books and I hated season 5 so I can only imagine how you felt. I hate when characters are completely rewritten just to sell the current plot.

Despite the uproar, I still don't think they get criticized enough for what they did with Sansa this season. I don't know how anyone can analyze that plot and tell me it made any sense for her to marry Ramsay or for LF to not know about him and be perfectly fine with not only giving her away but leaving her there alone. Was getting Sansa raped so important that they destroyed LF and Sansa's characters while downplaying Ramsay's reputation? The show is no longer great because it has become too sensationalized.

Where is the complexity of the first few seasons? Every character has been dumbed down and no longer has any depth. The priority is now on shocking moments instead of good characterization and storytelling. Ramsay is a super villain, Tyrion is worshipped, and Bronn is still around for nothing but pure fanservice. To be honest, Tyrion could fit into that category as well. And I hope that the show never gets away with their poor choices on the grounds of "realism" ever again. There was nothing realistic about Ramsay, Tyrion, or a host of other characters stories this past season.

The changes HBo made after S1, which actually followed the first book pretty well, were not improvements. And I didn't care for the gratuitous sex they threw in either. I am NOT a prude, there was sex in the novels, and sex can be an important part of a story.

But, in the HBO series it's: "Look people f$%^ing, because, people f$%^ing! Now, that's entertainment!" Give me a break!

I'm not a prude either. If anything, watching the show has made me less of a prude. But, that scene with Tyene stripping for Bronn didn't even try to justify itself. That was for the male audience because the show has been reduced to pure male fantasy.


This scene took place in the same episode that featured Gilly almost being raped and then immediately rewarding Sam with sex afterward because nothing gets a woman in the mood like a violent sexual assault. Sam gets his cherry popped because of the "nice guy" trope. It also featured Sansa's boobs on display more than we've ever seen them. The only thing covering her nipples was her hair. This was after we found out she has been locked in a room and raped every night but this scene fetishized it.

They are probably going to use it as fuel for Sansa attempting to take WF back and get revenge on the Boltons because she apparently didn't have enough reasons. It's like the Red Wedding never happened. Being raped in her home will only make her want her to take it back that much more. The resulting trauma will be of little issue.

I have a lot more problems with it such as the writing itself. The dialogue has taken a nosedive. Lines such as "the dwarf lives 'til we find a cock merchant" and "you want the good girl but need the bad pussy" were allowed on air. The show has adult content but a lot of the writing is juvenile. I won't even get into Ramsay's 20 good men and how that whole thing played out.

I'll post what was written in the following link as just one example of why the show has fallen so far: https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-Game-.../Tim-Filla


Yes, very much so, in my opinion.

The problem the show has run into is that the showrunners are approaching it from the wrong angle. What made the show popular, in their minds, is its plot twists. Game of Thrones was all about the Shocking Moments. The show became famous for killing characters. So the showrunners assumed that’s what people wanted: shocking moments and killing characters.

The problem is, that is NOT what makes Game of Thrones or A Song of Ice and Fire a good show or book. George RR Martin doesn’t sit there thinking of how he can shock the most people. He’s telling a story that revolves around characters, and oftentimes the story doesn’t go in the direction we think it’s going, and that results in a shock.

George RR Martin said in an interview recently: “It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking.”

This may or may not have been a subtle dig at Benioff and Weiss, the Game of Thrones showrunners. The show has done a very poor job at making their Shocking Moments grow organically out of characters. They’re being shocking just to be shocking, because that’s what they think drives people to watch the show.

I’ll give two examples of Shocking Moments from the show: one from Season Three that’s an example of how a twist is supposed to happen, and one from Season Five that is how a twist is NOT supposed to happen. Obviously, SPOILERS below.

The first is in Season 3, which I consider to be the high point of the series. In Episode 3, Jaime has his hand cut off by Locke, one of Roose Bolton’s men (it’s cut off by the Brave Companions in the books, but the effect is the same). This is the pivotal moment in Jaime’s character arc. Before this, he is arrogant and entitled. He knows he is one of the best swordsmen in Westeros and is the son of the wealthiest and most powerful man in Westeros. Even as Robb Stark’s captive, he believes he’ll get out of it due to his importance.

Locke (or the Brave Companions) see(s) this. They are fed up with his arrogance, and want to teach him a lesson. They cut his hand off. As a result, he has to rethink his entire identity. He can no longer be the warrior he was. For all his family’s wealth and power, he was unable to stop this from happening.

The twist was a reaction to Jaime’s personality, and its aftermath fundamentally alter Jaime’s character - in the books mostly, but also in the show. In both, he starts to rethink his relationship with Brienne, in part because of losing his hand, and thus his identity and sense of purpose. In the books, and briefly in the show, he tries to distance himself from Cersei, because Cersei no longer values him and thinks he is lesser. He reforges his identity separate from Cersei. (Sidenote: this is another problem I have with the show: inconsistent characterization and erratic character development. The show starts to head down this road, but then…completely subverts it, as Jaime is now Cersei’s pawn again in Season 6.)

Now, for the example of a bad twist. In Season 5, Sansa leaves the Vale, goes to Winterfell, and marries…Ramsay Bolton. In the books, Jeyne Poole, Sansa’s friend from the early days of the series, is purported to be Arya and sent to Winterfell to marry Ramsay. She is horribly raped, and Theon helps her escape. Sansa stays in the Vale. In the show, they replaced Fake Arya with Real Sansa.

Why did they do this? For the Shocking Moment. It happens ONLY for its shocking value. In fact, the writers defied logic and characterization to make it happen. Why does Sansa agree to marry into the family that murdered her brother? Because Petyr tells her to “Make them yours?” What does that mean? What does she expect to accomplish? Somewhat a sidenote, why does Petyr want this to happen? What does he gain by marrying Sansa to the Boltons? He says a few episodes later he expects Stannis to win. What was the point of putting Sansa there? Now his plan is to send a Vale army to the north to fight the Boltons. He put Sansa there to have a casus belli? He sacrificed a Stark, far and away the most valuable bargaining chip in claiming the north, to do this?

Going even further, this twist subverts Sansa’s characterization. At the end of Season 4, she (somewhat randomly) emerges strong and empowered with a new outfit. Then a few episodes later she’s crying, begging Petyr not to take her to Winterfell. But she does anyway. Then she gets raped. And she just sits around Winterfell crying and yelling at Theon the rest of the season. Then Theon, who has been thoroughly psychologically broken, helps her escape. But she’s afraid to cross a river. But then a few episodes later she meets Jon, and she’s now empowered again, demanding they go to war to take back the north. Where are these characterizations coming from? It also seems so random and disjointed.

So, summing up, Sansa’s rape was a twist that did not grow out of characters. It did not grow out of the situation. Her plotline was clumsily and inexplicably forced into another character’s plotline because the writers thought it would be more shocking.

That’s why the show has declined in quality. Now that it’s more successful and running out of source material, the writers think they can change it however they want in order to create their own shocking moments. This is happening even more in Season 6. The Martells are stabbed out of no where, because they’re “weak”. Roose Bolton, his wife, and his newborn child are killed. Osha is killed. None of these have any meaning anymore because they’re done so randomly. These twists are done for shock value and shock value alone, not to further the story.

I would argue that A Song of Ice and Fire is popular not because of its plot twists, but for its well developed characters. What made Ned’s death, or the Red Wedding so powerful wasn’t that they were unexpected. It was because we were made to care about the characters. And then, their deaths came from their own decisions, and their own characterizations. Ned was killed because he was honorable to a fault. Robb was killed because he fell in love. That’s infinitely more powerful than Sansa being raped because she decides to marry Ramsay for no discernible reason. That’s not a plot twist, that’s the show being sadistic because that’s what they think people want.

Sansa characterization makes even more clear how she got to where she is now then if they had followed the book. Until Sansa reconnected with Jon she had no choice or say so in any of the things that happened to her. Araya and Sansa had a big change in the end. When Arya killed Wlader Frey a change came over her. She did it with such glee. The same when Sansa killed Ramsey. It signaled they are no longer little girls. I expect to see these two being extremely deadly. I could even see Arya being Sansa's assassin.
I predict Jon, Sansa, and Arya will combine Winterfell with Danny's forces as they prepare to take on the white walkers. I also predict Sansa will be in charge of winterfell.

That only addresses the end result to Arya and Sansa's characterization.

Arya was stabbed by a magical assassin that has thoroughly kicked her ass every time they fought yet was doing parkour just days later and got the better of her. Jaqen says she's no one even though it's clearly far from the truth. The logistics of her killing Walder Frey's sons and cooking their fingers into a pie whle going unnoticed rang hollow as well since it was shown that she never truly mastered her faceless training. At least not on screen.

As for Sansa, the showrunners and writers framed her choosing to marry Ramsay as a good idea. It was not framed as her being strong-armed into it by LF because they said it was her choice. They make it seem like a brilliant idea for her to make the choice to reward her family's killers with her hand. Apparently, Sansa was doing it to "avenge them" and get some power in the north. I think there's a strong implication that the only thing wrong with this plan was Ramsay's personality and not the dozens of other reasons for why this makes no sense whatsoever. This is worst than anything that's happened in Grimm.

It's amazing that Sansa's initial four and a half seasons were not adequate enough and they went with the rape-as-empowerment trope. Littlefinger and Ramsay did her a favor by turning her into a sex slave. Ramsay told Theon to watch her become a woman and that's essentially what ended up happening. Was that her initiation into "the game"? I suppose having her direwolf killed, watching her father be beheaded in front of her while people cheered by her fiancé, being held hostage, being at the mercy of that psychopath and his mother, being beaten in public by knights, being branded as a traitor's daughter in enemy territory, nearly getting gang raped in a riot, being forced to marry Tyrion and expected to consummate, getting framed for regicide, being told she would marry her bratty cousin, and almost getting murdered by her Aunt wasn't enough. It just had to be rape that showed her character growth.

I could spend the whole day talking about the idiocy of the Sansa plotline without even addressing all the other issues I have with seasons 5 and 6. Anything that came out of that plotline is worthless because she never should have been there in the first place. It invalidates anything that came after and it's not like what came after was all that great. I don't view her feeding Ramsay to his dogs as a satisfying payoff. I could make a separate post about Ramsay and how the writers' obsession with him ruined the northern plotline. "20 good men" alone is enough to show how awful the plots have been in the last two seasons.

I do agree with your predictions. I think Arya and Sansa will be a force to be reckoned with. I can see Sansa's growing political acumen will make her the best candidate to run WF even though she already should be. Sansa can identify threats and Arya can "solve" those problems. The fact that they chose a bastard over her handwaves a lot of the problems something like that would cause. That KITN scene was another dumb one.

Arya had mastered her training. How many times when she was blind and could not defend from an attack. Her final examine she leads the assassin into a small space then put out the lights. The second thing she told Jaqen "I am Arya Stark and I am going home". Jaqen response was to smile and let her go. The point they where making she is the top assassin. So taking out the Frey sons would have been a walk in the park. Obviously she did not cut up the entire body of the two boys. She cut off parts as a symbolic gesture. Not sure what the significance of the finger was. Then it could have been the middle finger.

Out of all of the marriages not one of the women married out of love or choice. Every union was calculated by the male members to obtain and advantage. Little Finger placed her there as a place to stash her while he worked on taking control of the vale. Remember Little Finger places his objective over any of the people involved. He just needed for her to be alive. Knowing Ramsey would keep[ her alive at least till she bore him a child. He figured that would be enough time to take over the vale.

All that Sansa went through is not what made her as strong as she is now. Even after all that she still wasn't strong enough to challenge her brother on the correct actions needed to take back winterfell. She still had not realized how the game was played. or that she could be a played in the game. Even Cersi for the entire season was the puppet master instead of being the ruler. It was her brother that people followed. Then you have Danny she knew how to obtain followers but lacked the ability to rule. It was not until she got Little Finger got little finger to help. When making the request she had accepted she would have to pay a price. Watching Ramsey die was the first time she had the power over a man. After that she went to Little Finger and stood up time him. Letting him know she would be no longer controlled. She let him know she would not be paying the price for his help. Even when he tried to bargain with her explaining why he would be important. She turned him down. When he played his last card about her being a true Stark and Jon was a bastard. Her response was to stand by Jon's side with pride as he was named king of the North. Little Finger in the back of room realized he might have lost her. But then Little Finger did not really want Sansa, he was in love with her mother and Sansa was the closes he could get.