this is what I also find interesting. They portray Danny as not wanting fame, Fortune, or power. Her only requirement was allegiance. They never gave a reason why that allegiance would be bad. Those in opposition only refereed to previous leaders that demanded allegiance. If you really look at it Sansa what more dangerous the Danny. At least Dana consider the consequence. Sansa had one thought the survival of her house at any cost. Even Jhon who fought for the underdog. he never considered fighting to let the underdog rule. Danny was all about taking control from the privileged and giving it to the masses. That was her entire last speech on the steps. Yet we ended with control still in the hands of the privileged. Only eliminating the idea of conquest. Danny's idea would have been the only way of giving power to the little guy. just like she compensated the Shepard for damage to his flock. Yet crucified the masters for exerting their authority. The clam Danny was mad. That could be true if you consider it would be madness thinking there is any way to have the privileged give up their position and control. That is what i saw the cause for Danny's last act. Consider the Red Keep and the area around the Red Keep represents all that she was fighting against. It represents the privileged. As long as it stood they would always have control. Just like in Meereen they forced her to open the fighting pits. Look at where and how she burned. In the poor and working class areas she made strategic strikes only hitting military targets. At the end she crossed the walls guarding the area of the Red Keep before she launched her attack.
(06-17-2019, 01:06 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]It's weird how Varys and Tyrion kept trying to paint her as mad if she didn't listen to their advice. I could buy that if anybody their plans ever worked but they all failed. They were so focused on her not being hated but their strategy would've never gotten her the throne.
It's more frustrating when you think about what Dany initially wanted to do. She didn't want to burn KL. She only wanted to go after the Red Keep. There would've been casualties but it wouldn't have been nearly as devastating as they painted it. Cersei had just blew up the Sept killing thousands, including the queen, the Westeros version of the pope, her relatives, many nobles, and who knows who else. Yet, she was still followed and the people even cheered when Euron walked Ellaria and Turned through KL. The show kept trying to tell me Dany would be hated of she used her dragons to attack the Red Keep bit that's a hard sell after seeing what Cersei had just done. Cersei had already proven herself to be a mad queen yet she still held her title with no claim whatsoever.
Dany would be queen with all of her dragons and army intact had she just ignored what Varys and Tyrion advised her to do. The true madness was her giving them as many chances as she did. Keep in mind that Tyrion is the brother of the kingslayer and Varys sent assassins after her but she forgave them, took them into her inner circle, and still heeded their advice. She was more forgiving than most monarchs. I know the books have Varys and Tyrion in much different spots so the show deciding to do what they did with them as it relates to Dany only made it more nonsensical as most of their changes have.
As for the council, how is it that Tyrion was the one who basically decided the future of Westeros. He was a prisoner on trial. Half the country hated him for serving Dany and the other half hated her for betraying her. Yet, he was the one running the show, got to decide who would be the new king, and got to be Hand of the King.
On top of all that, Tyrion was an idiot. None of his plans worked and he shares a lot of responsibility for what happened in KL. It seemed like the showrunners banked on his likability to sell that entire farce.
And yeah, the ending was way too saccharine. The country is in ruins and would only get worse based on the way things went down. There would be a lot more fighting on that counsel and they wouldn't be so agreeable with each other.
For me, in the end, one of the biggest farce was how devastated and in ruins the capital city was left. A city that took centuries to build and improve or add to its size, was reduced to a heap of ruble in one day. That is a level of destruction you can not rebuild. That is a city to be left abandoned as previous destroyed cities by dragons were left.
The city would cost more and require more manpower to clean up and rebuild than starting fresh at a new location. What survivors were left, was there enough to clean up and rebuild? I don't think so. Would the rest of the kingdom help? Probably would but again, the city was completely destroyed. Bram was left to rule a pile of ruble.
One of the first things they would've been likely to do was decide on a new seat of power. I'm not sure where they would choose. KL appeared to be a prime spot because of its location right off the coast and was great for importing and exporting.
If it were my choice, I would probably choose Highgarden as the new seat of power. It's one of the most luxurious spots in the entire kingdom and is in the Reach which has the most fertile land. It really doesn't make sense that Bronn is the new Lord there. He was just kept around for fan-service.
Back to Dany, I think they were trying to portray her as a revolutionary gone wrong. She bought into her own hype and self-importance too much but they didn't build up to it properly so it didn't connect. Her absolutism is what was so dangerous about her but it wasn't until the end turned her into some type of Stalin or Hitler. She actually came off more as a Sith Lord.
None of that is something you can just spring on the audience for the sake of a twist. There still has to be a logical progression and that didn't happen here. I actually thought the Starks were the ones being unreasonably hostile towards her in the beginning of the season, especially Sansa, but the showrunners knew they would be right about Dany in the end so the way she was treated would be justified.
Speaking of which, the Dany/Sansa rivalry could've been a season in itself. It's a shame that this was rushed because it would've made for some good TV but that's another thing that was squandered.
I think the point they were trying to make with them is that Sansa was in the right to want northern independence and not be under Dany's heel. Their conversation revealed that Sansa wanted was taken from her family just like Dany wanted was taken from hers. With that being the case, why is what Dany wants right while what she wants is wrong? At least, that's what I think they were going for there.
Furthermore, Sansa was shown to be good at paying attention to the minute details which Dany ignored. They wanted us to see her as more reasonable and wiser. It's a shame that it came off more as a catfight rather than what it was supposed to be.
The Sansa vs Danny conflict is a perfect example of the political commentary being made in the end. If you look at the entire conflict as the haves against haves nots. Compare how Sansa story ended. She was shown dawning her royal gown and crown. Not once did Danny projects her self as being regal. She never even wore a crown. Even in Meereen, where Danny would have most definitely been considered the queen. Even Danny's last speech was not that of a Queen but as a liberator. The previous comment about the destruction. She only destroyed the area of the privileged. The biggest tell was Danny destroyed the Red Keep making sure she took out the throne room. If she was truly the mad Queen she would have sat on the throne. Instead she look at it with disgust. George was making the point. One would have to be mad if they thought the little guy could ever not be controlled by the privileged. Even the council was about how they where going to restore their privileged lifestyles. There was nothing about how they where going to help the suffering masses. Even in Meerren Tyrion told her the masters would never give up their position and property. The saddest part was, they all tricked John into not seeing Danny's position. Even Sansa saw how dangerous Danny would be for the privileged. And went along with using John. Another tell was John's look when Drogon melted the throne. It was the look of realization he was lied to. Which is John's story, being lied to by the ones he trusted. Consider, Danny's ideas where exactly the same as the wildlings. The idea of the people being self governing. Like the wildings there was never a vision of privilege. The same with John at every turn he did not want a position of privilege. Yet they made him leader at the wall, then turned on him when he fought for the little guy. They made him King of the north then turned on him when he went to seek help from the one who liberated the slave cities. They prayed of the bigoted bias of how they felt about Targaryen. Think about this. The negative view of Targaryen is all based on a single view. Arguments always centered around the mad King. Yet the wildfire was only inside the walls of the Red Keep area. You have Danny how came to power by liberating the oppressed. Then you have John who is a Targaryen. This contradicts the idea that Targaryens are evil by nature. I see this as George making the point of the danger of propaganda.
(06-18-2019, 04:50 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]The previous comment about the destruction. She only destroyed the area of the privileged. The biggest tell was Danny destroyed the Red Keep making sure she took out the throne room.
syscrash, again we seem to watch different stuff on the same screen. I saw Jon stab Deny in a roofless mostly intact throne room, while Arya was trying to help a peasant woman with her daughter get destroyed, running from common living quarters to common living quarters. I saw a totally destroyed city in all areas, not just the rich neighborhoods.
Quote:If she was truly the mad Queen she would have sat on the throne. Instead she look at it with disgust.
What I saw was Deny, knowing Jon, to be the true heir to the throne, waiting to abdicate, the throne, to her for her to sit on it. Then, I saw, Jon stabbing her. She never got the chance, to sit on any throne, in disgust.
Quote:George was making the point. One would have to be mad if they thought the little guy could ever not be controlled by the privileged. Even the council was about how they where going to restore their privileged lifestyles. There was nothing about how they where going to help the suffering masses. Even in Meerren Tyrion told her the masters would never give up their position and property. The saddest part was, they all tricked John into not seeing Danny's position. Even Sansa saw how dangerous Danny would be for the privileged. And went along with using John. Another tell was John's look when Drogon melted the throne. It was the look of realization he was lied to. Which is John's story, being lied to by the ones he trusted. Consider, Danny's ideas where exactly the same as the wildlings. The idea of the people being self governing. Like the wildings there was never a vision of privilege. The same with John at every turn he did not want a position of privilege. Yet they made him leader at the wall, then turned on him when he fought for the little guy. They made him King of the north then turned on him when he went to seek help from the one who liberated the slave cities. They prayed of the bigoted bias of how they felt about Targaryen. Think about this. The negative view of Targaryen is all based on a single view. Arguments always centered around the mad King. Yet the wildfire was only inside the walls of the Red Keep area. You have Danny how came to power by liberating the oppressed. Then you have John who is a Targaryen. This contradicts the idea that Targaryens are evil by nature. I see this as George making the point of the danger of propaganda.
Just more babbling about a self absorbed belief of having the ability to see the "writer's intent" by completely overlooking the real end,
Reality Check. Here is what I saw. A "high born" privileged family name, the Stark's, not only retain in control of the North, it was upgraded to an independent Kingdom, under the high born, Sansa
Stark.
Bran
Stark ended up on the throne for the rest of the 6 Kingdoms. In addition, The day to day administrative control, ended up under another high born, Tyrion Lannister, as "The Hand". The only low born ending up with something to say was Bronn.
This is what I observed. But you can keep on keeping on, babbling to your hearts content.
Dany initially wanted to be the great liberator but she elevated herself to the status of a goddess which is why she cracked. Eventually a goddess is going to believe she can't be questioned. This is exemplified when she told Jon she knew what was good and Jon wanted to know about what all of the other people who thought they knew what was good and right would fare under her rule. She said "they don't get to choose" which isn't an ideology that the "Breaker of Chains" should have. That's when she officially became a Sith Lord in Jon's eyes.
Dany mentioned liberating Winterfell first in her speech. Jon must have realized that meant burning it the ground if Sansa didn't do exactly what she wanted her to do from now on. That's what both Arya and Tyrion were trying to tell him.
The problem I have with the "Mad Queen" narrative is she never really appeared insane to me, not even when burnt KL which I don't think was earned but that's another story. She was never Aerys who burned people for the fun of it.
Speaking of Aerys, even he wasn't going to torch the city for the hell of it. He only ordered the pyromancers to burn them all when he knew has on the brink of defeat because Tywin had turned on him and sacked the city. So Dany burning it all down after the enemy had surrendered wasn't even something the Mad King would do. Aerys made things worse for himself when he ordered Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. And even that could be explained because he thought they would seek vengeance for the dead Starks and Lyanna but it was too late to save his reign by then.
Dany could've destroyed the Red Keep and only the Red Keep. There would've beencausalities but I would've understood that with the way they were going or I could've even bought her killing civilians if that were the only way she could get to Cersei.
Instead, Dany decided to torch the city first and save the RK for last. It was baffling because victory was already in hand and it meant that Cersei would actually have a chance to escape by the time Dany got there. It's like they just want us to buy Dany going crazy and that explains everything.
I really feel like they could've made a case for Jon going crazy eventually since he was resurrected. It's supposed to take something away from you but Jon returned the same as always. I thought he has been a lackluster and stagnant character ever since he came back.
(06-19-2019, 07:59 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]Dany initially wanted to be the great liberator but she elevated herself to the status of a goddess which is why she cracked. Eventually a goddess is going to believe she can't be questioned. This is exemplified when she told Jon she knew what was good and Jon wanted to know about what all of the other people who thought they knew what was good and right would fare under her rule. She said "they don't get to choose" which isn't an ideology that the "Breaker of Chains" should have. That's when she officially became a Sith Lord in Jon's eyes.
I'm not so certain that Dany looking upon herself as a goddess is such an irrational thing though. How could she be in command of three dragons and not look upon herself as being specially gifted above the people?
(06-19-2019, 10:08 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not so certain that Dany looking upon herself as a goddess is such an irrational thing though. How could she be in command of three dragons and not look upon herself as being specially gifted above the people?
It's not actually. Someone like Dany believing she's a goddess is one of the most reasonable things in the show. Being invulnerable to fire and hatching three petrified dragon eggs certainly would inflate my ego. She didn't get all of those titles for nothing.
In the end, this is what made her so dangerous as power that can't be questioned always is. But that wasn't her character until the very end which is why the narrative surrounding her fell apart. I think it would've been better to have more of a gradual build up and have another season of her being a tyrant to really land. That could've been an entire final season in itself instead of breaking her down in the span of a few episodes.
In this world, there are several people that could've been deified in the eyes of the people. Jon for being resurrected, Arya for killing the Night King, Bran for being the Three-Eyed Raven, Red Priestesses like Melisandre, and others.
It just seemed like Dany was treated like the dangerous one ever since she came to Westeros while the others weren't. It kinda feels like she was just seen as the foreign invader. I could see the characters seeing her that way but I think the audience was supposed to as well. Cersei was closer to a "Mad Queen" than Dany was throughout the show but it's Dany who will forever be known with that title.
Quote:syscrash, again we seem to watch different stuff on the same screen. I saw Jon stab Deny in a roofless mostly intact throne room, while Arya was trying to help a peasant woman with her daughter get destroyed, running from common living quarters to common living quarters. I saw a totally destroyed city in all areas, not just the rich neighborhoods.
You ignore Cersi brought a large number of people from the common area into the Red Keep. So yes you would see the poor running in the streets. The privileged would have retreated inside most likely to their cellars. Remember the rich all had cool places where they could store their food.
Quote:What I saw was Deny, knowing Jon, to be the true heir to the throne, waiting to abdicate, the throne, to her for her to sit on it. Then, I saw, Jon stabbing her. She never got the chance, to sit on any throne, in disgust.
John never wanted the throne. He was never a threat. He was only a threat if the wheel stayed in place. The wheel to determines who leads. Remember her vision was to break the wheel. As for having a chance! She choose to address her followers on the steps, rather then hold court on the Throne. That is a significant difference. Also you say you only saw the roof gone. Consider she caused enough damage to cave in the basement. The Keep was destroyed. She was destroying what she saw as the root of the problem, the symbol of privilege. Consider, up to that point it was about sitting on the Throne. In the end she destroyed the Throne room. Also consider of all the attacks on the Red Keep. The writers singled out the attack on the window in the Throne room. They would not have filmed it that way if it was not important narrative.
Quote:Reality Check. Here is what I saw. A "high born" privileged family name, the Stark's, not only retain in control of the North, it was upgraded to an independent Kingdom, under the high born, Sansa Stark.
And that was the point. The madness was, thinking she could end control by the privileged. The irony was what they ended up with was the madness. The madness of doing the same thing and expecting a different result. That was shown in the council as we watched the conversation go from reform to personal interest. The thing we don't agree on and what you find as writer intent. Is you never consider the significant of how something filmed. You see the imagery for it's cinematic appeal. You see it from an emotional position. Where I realize There is never a scene filmed where the writers do not consider the message along with the emotional impact of the scene. But the biggest thing that should be consider. A film is a writers form of expression. It is a reflection of what they think and what they want to say. I something like GOT not only do you have the message, you have to story, and you have the mythology. The mythology defines the story structure. The story is used to deliver the message. Even though the story is not the message. I kid shows yes the story is the message but not in shows that are more art than function.
Quote:Dany initially wanted to be the great liberator but she elevated herself to the status of a goddess which is why she cracked.
Danny never once was seen wearing or acting regal. When she took Meereen her outfit was inspired by the unsully. Then it became more Dortraky when she went to Dragon stone. Then the coat dress where Wildling inspired when she went up north. Where as with Cersi and Sansa they both wore gowns and acted Regal.
Danny was the one character that made a point of never forgetting where she came from and what she had been through. Cersi and Sans wanted to erase their pass.
Dany was acting like Anakin Skywalker in her final moments. You can't be the "Breaker of Chains" and tell people they have no choice. She wasn't breaking the wheel so much as she was becoming it. Dany saw herself as the ultimate power. She could justify anything she did because she thought only she, and maybe Jon, knew what was good. That's a tyrant if I ever saw one.
Don't think I'm trying to defend the writing because I'm not but it was clear to me that's what they wanted to convey. They didn't make her look regal. They were trying to make her look more evil especially when they had the shot of Drogon's wings directly behind her. Her ideology was dangerous because she would no longer be willing to compromise with anyone that didn't agree with her. She was a revolutionary turned dictator.
Essos was different from Westeros. As bad as it is with the different class systems, the latter technically didn't have slaves. At least not officially. They didn't want her to be their great savior. The reason Jorah was exiled was Ned called for his head for selling people into slavery so he could provide his wife a life of luxury. Westeros already had lords they admired such as the Starks, Tyrells, Tullys, Arryns, and Martells. The Baratheons and even Greyjoys had their loyal subjects as well.
Dany got most of the followers she got not because they thought she would make a great queen but for vengeance. Olenna and Ellaria followed her because they wanted revenge on Cersei and they most likely would've had no problem with her burning KL to the ground. Yara pledged to her for help in combating Euron. She too wanted Cersei to just attack the Red Keep as soon as she arrived. They didn't really have an idea of what her governing style would be like. They just wanted fire and blood to rain down on their enemies.
The North, Vale, and Riverlands actually cared about how they would be governed and didn't want Dany. Sansa held much more influence than her in these kingdoms and they all would've allied and fought for her.