(06-15-2018, 04:20 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Juliette wouldn't change that drastically without massive setbacks and Meisner and Co. would need to take steps to keep her in check. I'm not saying it was a non-stop fight but I do think some physical confrontations took place at HW HQ. Meisner wouldn't just take her word that she would change.
Why is it that people find Eve so strange. There is nothing about the Eve we meet that does not shout special forces.
Quote:I do think some physical confrontations took place at HW HQ. Meisner wouldn't just take her word that she would change.
So is that how you think operatives are trained. Wouldn't it make more sense that Meisner reasoned with her and showed her being a Hexenbiest can give her purpose. That she said that exact thing kind of supports reasoning over abuse.
Eve is strange. She's meant to be strange. The characters themselves were very skeptical of Juliette's transformation. Even Trubel, an HW operative, questioned it. And no, it does not shout Special Forces to me similar to how Nick and Hank don't scream typical detectives following typical police procedure.
I don't expect this show to teach me how operatives are trained. Juliette had just tried to commit suicide by Nick then got angry when he didn't comply and intended to kill him.
I don't think it made more sense that Meisner reasoned with her and that's all it took. It makes more sense that there were a lot more hardships considering how different Juliette became. She acted on impulse and was highly driven by her emotions while Eve was essentially a cyborg. I doubt that one smack and some reasoning by Meisner caused that drastic a change. Juliette said they did what they had to and I think that implied a lot more than reasoning.
(06-15-2018, 05:17 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]Unless we are to believe that Meisner was some kind of brilliant psychologist (and I don't), Juliette's conversion to Eve would probably have involved some very advanced MKULTRA-type mind control techniques. Like turning Bucky Barnes into the Winter Soldier. Hexenbiest powers would probably have been seriously drug-suppressed until they were satisfied that she was thinking the way they wanted her to.
We don't exactly know what happened but this is probably closer to the truth. Using the Winter Soldier as an example was an excellent analogy.
As for Juliette's powers, if anyone had safeguards in place it would be HW. People may say they can't subdue her because of her powers but they already had her restrained and had ways of training her that didn't risk getting their heads exploded.
Why is it seen that Juliette trying to kill Meisner resulting in a slap is an indication that physical abuse was used for her to be Eve.
(06-15-2018, 03:44 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]This is one scenario where neither of us will be proven right since we can only infer things instead of having definitive proof so I'll add one more thing.
Juliette didn't become Eve overnight. It wouldn't be as simple as Juliette accepting Meisner's offer and leaving it at that because her entire personality changed. She became emotionless for the most part. Hexenette was certainly not emotionless. Juliette wouldn't change that drastically without massive setbacks and Meisner and Co. would need to take steps to keep her in check. I'm not saying it was a non-stop fight but I do think some physical confrontations took place at HW HQ. Meisner wouldn't just take her word that she would change.
I don't believe that HW practices a one size fits all kind of brutality training for potential operatives. In my opinion, training is tailored to fit the subject. Beatings as a way of conditioning an operative make sense for someone like Trubel. They don't for someone like Juliette.
Meisner knew that. If he didn't, Juliette would have been in that cell from the start and he would have been beating the crap out of her instead of meeting her out in the open and offering her a deal.
I'm not saying Juliette became Eve overnight simply by the power of reasoning. I think she was chemically altered. Beatings wouldn't force Juliette to become Eve. But drugs could.
I do not think it was just drugs either.
They did it to control Juliette and become Eve.
Juliette could control her powers, it was her mind that went crazy and murdered.
She was angry with Nick and did not accept what was,otherwise would have made a bloody spectacle in the precinct but there the fury was contained inside and at any moment,
(06-15-2018, 08:29 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]Even Trubel, an HW operative, questioned it.
Well, I don't give Trubel much credit after she was abducted by HW. I think they beat her one too many times. An operative who doesn't even know the name of the organization she's an operative for doesn't seem too credible to me.
(06-15-2018, 08:29 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: [ -> ]Eve is strange. She's meant to be strange. The characters themselves were very skeptical of Juliette's transformation
I think the characters practiced quick, plausible doubting. In other words, make a strange face when they find out Juliette calls herself "Eve", but then turn a blind eye to everything else. In reality, Juliette had been mutilated, the evidence was right in front of them, and they all should have been paying attention to the red flags and finding out just what HW was up to.
Quote: Beatings as a way of conditioning an operative make sense for someone like Trubel. They don't for someone like Juliette.
The idea of using physical methods as a useful tool for behavior modification has been proven to not work. But even now, you have leading politicians advocating for the benefits of enhanced interrogation. Testimony from people who have been subjected to this type of treatment have all said it does not work. If you want proof, take any of the people is solitary confinement because of their behavior. How many of them do you thank that after being maced, degraded and thrown in the hole, change their behavior. Maybe 70%. Maybe the cops could punish 50% of problem prisoners into compliance. How about 20%. Watch the show lockup raw. Yes it is a show, and yes they pick and choose who to interview. but of all the episodes, Not One prisoner has said they learned their lesson. Some do say it teaches them better how to attack the officers and not get caught. basically it teach them them how to be better at being bad. The one thing they all say. The harsher the treatment the harder their resolve.
One more thing that proves without a doubt that you can not change people with physical abuse. If you could, slavery would have worked. So like people who agree with enhanced interrogation, just like the people who advocate for aversion therapy.To think Juliette and or Trubel, or anyone can be made to do something through physical means. Has never been in that position.
Lets take something most people have had experience with. That is the spanking of a child. Depending on your age spanking was a fact of life. For those that where spanked. Did it really work, or did you just learn how to not get caught even if that meant not doing something. How many promised not to do something, only to try a different approach. Now compare that to the times, if you where so lucky, that reasoning was used resulting in you no longer seeing something as a good idea.
I use these example not to say there is a similarity in the circumstances. I am not even saying their is a similarity in the methods used. I am only saying no matter the circumstance or the method. The body and mind has an involuntary need to survive. Survival is to fight and win or retreat. Submitting does not result in survival.
The basic process in "brainwashing" involves "breaking" the existing personality through physical abuse and/or the use of psychoactive drugs that render the mind open to suggestion, then "building" a new one through indoctrination. Cults are a real-life example. Most fictional examples are extremes of these techniques that have never been officially acknowledged as something that can actually be done in real life.
Expecting G&K or their writers to have actually researched this thoroughly (or even at all) is unrealistic. It's probably not just a coincidence that "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D." and "The Winter Soldier" came out the year before Juliette went hexenbiest and the first hints of Chavez and her mysterious black op team were introduced. HW is basically S.H.I.E.L.D. and BC Hydra.
(06-16-2018, 02:22 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]The basic process in "brainwashing" involves "breaking" the existing personality through physical abuse and/or the use of psychoactive drugs that render the mind open to suggestion, then "building" a new one through indoctrination. Cults are a real-life example. Most fictional examples are extremes of these techniques that have never been officially acknowledged as something that can actually be done in real life.
Expecting G&K or their writers to have actually researched this thoroughly (or even at all) is unrealistic. It's probably not just a coincidence that "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D." and "The Winter Soldier" came out the year before Juliette went hexenbiest and the first hints of Chavez and her mysterious black op team were introduced. HW is basically S.H.I.E.L.D. and BC Hydra.
Face, there is only one problem with your analysis It will not suffice for someone persuading a PhD in Bull Crapping such as one of these contributor. That is why such a B/S artist has to go to the extream in B/S'in. How else are they going to impress the B/S panel with their B/S thesis for their B/S PhD?
Did I use enough "B/S's" in that post?
(06-16-2018, 02:22 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]The basic process in "brainwashing" involves "breaking" the existing personality through physical abuse and/or the use of psychoactive drugs that render the mind open to suggestion, then "building" a new one through indoctrination. Cults are a real-life example. Most fictional examples are extremes of these techniques that have never been officially acknowledged as something that can actually be done in real life.
Expecting G&K or their writers to have actually researched this thoroughly (or even at all) is unrealistic. It's probably not just a coincidence that "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D." and "The Winter Soldier" came out the year before Juliette went hexenbiest and the first hints of Chavez and her mysterious black op team were introduced. HW is basically S.H.I.E.L.D. and BC Hydra.
The showrunners clearly don't care about how subjects like these are handled and I never expected otherwise. I don't even criticize them for it. The only thing they need to concern themselves with is if their methods work within the story they're telling. I find that to be a more interesting conversation.
![[Image: deadjuliette2.jpg]](http://mygerardinc.com/images/GrimmImages/deadjuliette2.jpg)