(06-13-2018, 02:35 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]Juliette went back to the house with the intention of committing "suicide by Nick," and after Trubel knocked her out, Chavez cleaned up after the mess. So as of the next episode, to anyone outside of HW Juliette was dead, or at least presumed dead.
My guess is that if Meisner's efforts to remake Juliette had failed, the "presumed dead" would have become "positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably dead."
(06-13-2018, 10:31 AM)eric Wrote: [ -> ]I never expected Nick to announce that Juliette was dead. No body, no mess around the house, the neighborhood full of real bodies--what's a cop to do? I am not sure how he would have reported it, if he had told family and friends she was dead where was the body and the weapon, a female "friend" who had lived in the home killed her, and some mysterious sort of government agency no one had ever heard of had stolen the body, he would probably be suspect #1 in the mass murder.
(06-13-2018, 03:30 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: [ -> ]There is no scene in which Juliette doesn't get on the helicopter or tells anyone why she isn't getting on the helicopter. We see Juliette carrying Diana as she walks away from the house with Freddie toward the helicopter, and the next thing we see she's at the house telling Nick she didn't know Kenneth was going to kill his mother and not making any attempt to stop Nick from choking the life out of her. He first act of violence comes only after Nick can't bring himself to kill her. My take on that was that either she was trying to force Nick to kill her in self defense or that she was just angry at him for not killing her.
It's certainly possible that she told Freddie she was going back to kill Nick. In fact, It's almost certain that she didn't say, "I'm so wracked with guilt over my betrayals that I want Nick to kill me." But her behavior in the house is a textbook depiction of someone trying to commit suicide by cop.
(06-13-2018, 04:41 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ](06-13-2018, 10:31 AM)eric Wrote: [ -> ]I never expected Nick to announce that Juliette was dead. No body, no mess around the house, the neighborhood full of real bodies--what's a cop to do? I am not sure how he would have reported it, if he had told family and friends she was dead where was the body and the weapon, a female "friend" who had lived in the home killed her, and some mysterious sort of government agency no one had ever heard of had stolen the body, he would probably be suspect #1 in the mass murder.
Why'd he tell the scoobies then? Why'd Hank tell Renard?
Quote:OMG. I used to read DC comics going back to the 60's and I don't recall any of them back-stabbing any of their friends, ON PURPOSE, before they became super heroes. Just because she came back as Eve, Evette, FrankenEve or what ever other frekin name you can come up with. She is no hero.What about Mystique. How about Malcolm Merlyn he turned his own daughter into a killer by having her kill her best friend. The other thing I never once used super hero. I called them super action characters. The reason these characters created are neither viallian or hero. The black canary is an example. The same with cat women. Comics have gone beyond the good versus evil. Like TV shows they play in the grey area. It is why characters go from one team to another and then back again. The same as with the characters on Grimm.
Quote:If the others so mentioned characters did kill, it was not for the same reasons Juliette did.Lets examine that. Juliette killed in wesenrein. Nick sent her after the members with a gun. She blow the guys head up because he was going to kill her. There was the manticore, again he was going to kill her. The only other death was Kelly, in which Juliette was involved. Since this is the only non self defense death. Lets compare Nicks actions with his non self defense death. Kenneth was in custody. Nick had him brought to an empty warehouse where he executed a prisoner that was in custody. Juliette provided access so others could kill. Both of their actions where driven by revenge. If you want to argue that Kenneth beheaded his mother so it was justified that he get revenge. Then it would be justified fro Nick to get revenge against Adalind for sending the reapers that stressed his aunt causing her to dye. It would be justified for Adalind to get revenge against Nick because Kelly was involved with her moms death.
Quote: In S6, she even admitted of her transgressions.In season six Juliette addressed what she was going through in season 4. She talked about not understanding and being scared. She admitted she was sorry for how she acted and what she did. But no where is it acknowledged Juliette killed Kelly. After Juliette became Eve her kills where the factory to save the group. The two in the truck so Rosalie and Monroe could get away. The guy that was watching Hank. Yes Eve assassinated the BC leader, but Nick killed his two body guards instead of taking out his badge gun and saying you are under arrest.
Quote:Why do you think they had to reboot her again in S6If you watched the other shows that where creating their female super action characters. The also rebooted their characters. What I saw was in all the shows that had developed female super action characters, these characters where taking focus from the main characters. The following season all the shows either removed or downgraded all of them.
Quote:1) She walked out of his life. She moved on by having relationships with others.The scene with Juliette in Nick arms after being shot disproves lack of concern. His emotional reaction shows that even though she had just tried to kill him, he stilled cared for her.
2) She destroyed his un-replaceable family legacy. In case you forgot, most of the stuff in the trailer.
3)She used an email and a phone call to betray and entrap His mother to be killed/decapitated.
Quote:This is the BIG KICKER. If you can't see the differences of what Juliette did to Nick & Co., his mom and their neighbors to what Nick did in retaliation to Kenneth and the Royals? What can I say. Obviously we follow different morals.This is a perfect example of your seeing things through a biased lens. Lets talk about what Juliette did to what Nick did. Sure you want to point a narrative but lets look at the actual actions since it is about what they did. Juliette made the deaths possible vs Nick did the actual killing. So it is not about what they did. it is about who died. Lets examine that. You have Kenneth the Royals enforcer vs Kelly the killer of wesen. People continuously want sympathy for Kelly's death because she was Nicks mom. Yet they forget Kelly and Mari where deadly Grimms. Can you really say that Kelly is any better then Kenneth. You do remember the episode where they explained how Kelly and Mari's dad trained them. We have seen wesen comment on the reputations of the kessler sisters. So we know Kelly is as deadly and as vicious as Kenneth. But Kelly being Nick mom, anyone who kills her must be a monster, even if they could have been the one dead if Kelly had got to them first. It's your bias of liking Nick and hating Juliette that allows you to only see Kelly as an innocent victim no difference then the neighbors. It is your bias that allows you to see Juliette's deception as superior to that of Kelly ability to detect danger. It's your bias that allows you to see deception worse then shoving a knife into someones neck.
(06-13-2018, 09:02 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:OMG. I used to read DC comics going back to the 60's and I don't recall any of them back-stabbing any of their friends, ON PURPOSE, before they became super heroes. Just because she came back as Eve, Evette, FrankenEve or what ever other frekin name you can come up with. She is no hero.What about Mystique. How about Malcolm Merlyn he turned his own daughter into a killer by having her kill her best friend. The other thing I never once used super hero. I called them super action characters. The reason these characters created are neither viallian or hero. The black canary is an example. The same with cat women. Comics have gone beyond the good versus evil. Like TV shows they play in the grey area. It is why characters go from one team to another and then back again. The same as with the characters on Grimm.
Quote:If the others so mentioned characters did kill, it was not for the same reasons Juliette did.Lets examine that. Juliette killed in wesenrein. Nick sent her after the members with a gun. She blow the guys head up because he was going to kill her. There was the manticore, again he was going to kill her. The only other death was Kelly, in which Juliette was involved. Since this is the only non self defense death. Lets compare Nicks actions with his non self defense death. Kenneth was in custody. Nick had him brought to an empty warehouse where he executed a prisoner that was in custody. Juliette provided access so others could kill. Both of their actions where driven by revenge. If you want to argue that Kenneth beheaded his mother so it was justified that he get revenge. Then it would be justified fro Nick to get revenge against Adalind for sending the reapers that stressed his aunt causing her to dye. It would be justified for Adalind to get revenge against Nick because Kelly was involved with her moms death.
Quote: In S6, she even admitted of her transgressions.In season six Juliette addressed what she was going through in season 4. She talked about not understanding and being scared. She admitted she was sorry for how she acted and what she did. But no where is it acknowledged Juliette killed Kelly. After Juliette became Eve her kills where the factory to save the group. The two in the truck so Rosalie and Monroe could get away. The guy that was watching Hank. Yes Eve assassinated the BC leader, but Nick killed his two body guards instead of taking out his badge gun and saying you are under arrest.
Quote:Why do you think they had to reboot her again in S6If you watched the other shows that where creating their female super action characters. The also rebooted their characters. What I saw was in all the shows that had developed female super action characters, these characters where taking focus from the main characters. The following season all the shows either removed or downgraded all of them.
Quote:1) She walked out of his life. She moved on by having relationships with others.The scene with Juliette in Nick arms after being shot disproves lack of concern. His emotional reaction shows that even though she had just tried to kill him, he stilled cared for her.
2) She destroyed his un-replaceable family legacy. In case you forgot, most of the stuff in the trailer.
3)She used an email and a phone call to betray and entrap His mother to be killed/decapitated.
The lack of a body and her death being connected to the wesen world, would be the reason for Nick not to act upon her death.
I am glad you posted this
Quote:This is the BIG KICKER. If you can't see the differences of what Juliette did to Nick & Co., his mom and their neighbors to what Nick did in retaliation to Kenneth and the Royals? What can I say. Obviously we follow different morals.This is a perfect example of your seeing things through a biased lens. Lets talk about what Juliette did to what Nick did. Sure you want to point a narrative but lets look at the actual actions since it is about what they did. Juliette made the deaths possible vs Nick did the actual killing. So it is not about what they did. it is about who died. Lets examine that. You have Kenneth the Royals enforcer vs Kelly the killer of wesen. People continuously want sympathy for Kelly's death because she was Nicks mom. Yet they forget Kelly and Mari where deadly Grimms. Can you really say that Kelly is any better then Kenneth. You do remember the episode where they explained how Kelly and Mari's dad trained them. We have seen wesen comment on the reputations of the kessler sisters. So we know Kelly is as deadly and as vicious as Kenneth. But Kelly being Nick mom, anyone who kills her must be a monster, even if they could have been the one dead if Kelly had got to them first. It's your bias of liking Nick and hating Juliette that allows you to only see Kelly as an innocent victim no difference then the neighbors. It is your bias that allows you to see Juliette's deception as superior to that of Kelly ability to detect danger. It's your bias that allows you to see deception worse then shoving a knife into someones neck.
Think about this. No where is it acknowledged that Juliette is considered their enemy. It was acknowledged that they where afraid of her. Add to this they spent the next two season having her being invaluable to the group. Kind of kills any argument you could make that the intent is Julilette/Eve was to be perceived as an evil enemy. I know you are going to site the part about Nick saying to kill her. But I am sure you are not going to consider the context of when it was said and how it setup the deception for the end of the season. I am also sure you are not going to consider Trubel, not only saying she was not trying to kill her, but also saying she still owes Juliette.
Quote:Thats when Juliette decides not to go with the royals and ends up going back to the house to kill Nick.Then why did she try to have Nick kill her. If he really blamed her for his mother death, he had his hands around her neck. Why not kill her. He had no problem killing Kenneth.
Quote:WHAT DID KELLY DO TO JULIETTE TO BE DESERVING OF HER BETRAYAL? WHEN DID KELLY ACT THREATENING TO JULIETTE?Nowhere is it indicated that Juliette motives had anything to do with Kelly. The only reason Juliette contacted Kelly was because Kelly had Diana. Juliette told us during the fight that Adalind would never get Diana. That makes more sense for Juliette being involved instead of having something against Kelly or trying to hurt Nick.
Quote:How was Juliette protecting herself by helping getting Kelly killed.You can not find one place where it shows Juliette planing to kill Kelly. Every plan we saw was to kidnap Diana. Because Kelly's head ended up in a box. Does not mean the plan was anymore then to kidnap Diana. YOU can not find one thing to disprove the idea that Kenneth removing Kelly's head was not something he thought of at that moment. You posted all those lines about the injustice Juliette did to Kelly. It is only an injustice if the result was the goal. For Juliette the goal was Diana.
(06-14-2018, 12:44 AM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Thats when Juliette decides not to go with the royals and ends up going back to the house to kill Nick.Then why did she try to have Nick kill her. If he really blamed her for his mother death, he had his hands around her neck. Why not kill her. He had no problem killing Kenneth.
(06-14-2018, 02:37 AM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:WHAT DID KELLY DO TO JULIETTE TO BE DESERVING OF HER BETRAYAL? WHEN DID KELLY ACT THREATENING TO JULIETTE?Nowhere is it indicated that Juliette motives had anything to do with Kelly. The only reason Juliette contacted Kelly was because Kelly had Diana. Juliette told us during the fight that Adalind would never get Diana. That makes more sense for Juliette being involved instead of having something against Kelly or trying to hurt Nick.
Quote:How was Juliette protecting herself by helping getting Kelly killed.You can not find one place where it shows Juliette planing to kill Kelly. Every plan we saw was to kidnap Diana. Because Kelly's head ended up in a box. Does not mean the plan was anymore then to kidnap Diana. YOU can not find one thing to disprove the idea that Kenneth removing Kelly's head was not something he thought of at that moment. You posted all those lines about the injustice Juliette did to Kelly. It is only an injustice if the result was the goal. For Juliette the goal was Diana.
I know you like to completely ignore the epilogue but they are important. When Juliette comes back to the house ask why, besides the Eve transition setup. Considering her first admonition was that she did not know. Her not going with the Royals could be seen as her not in agreement with what the Royals did. I saw some post she came back to kill Nick for the Royals. The problem with that is after the admonition and showing empathy for what happened. She then asked Nick to kill her. All of that is not that actions of someone coming to kill Nick for the Royals. I would go even so far to say that because Nick could not kill her. Juliette was trying to get Nick mad enough that he could. A matter of life and death maybe then he could kill her. Like she said no way is she going to leave it like that.
But instead of you showing where killing was in the plan. You will use the argument, because Kelly died using contributions made by juliette. It was Juliette fault that Kelly died. Even though time after time it showed the contributions where made with the anticipation of getting Diana. If Juliette was part of Killing Kelly and Kenneth did not think Juliette would object to him killing Kelly. Why would he send her up stairs. Why not have her great Kelly and then let her do what she did to the guy in wesenrein.