Hello Hansel,
Welcome to Grimm Forum!
Here we discuss ad nauseam all things Grimm. I agree with your comments about why Juliette rejected Nick's proposal. I believe his lack of knowledge about Grimm and Wessen issues came across to Juliette as not letting her into his life. She blew it big time in romance. Her incompetence for handling tough issues eventually got most of her friends to hate her and forced Trubel to fire the two crossbow bolts to end her wretched life.
The sub-issue at hand is how can she possibly "slum" with Nick if they are both of the same socio-economic class? The writers do not provide financial data, but published compensation data put the about even. I suspect the "slumming" contention is about Nick and Juliette's relationship but IMHO is an expression of someone's contempt of Nick.
Quote:Lacking any data to the contrary, Juliette and Nick are in the same socio-economic class. As such neither can possibly "slum" with the other.
I beg to differ, but Juliette is not in the same social-economic class as Nick. I would agree with you if Nick went to medical school and decided to go into disease research and Juliette became a DVM. But he did not. He's a detective. She's a DVM. They run in different circles and just happened to hook up.
Quote:Juliette's rejection of Nick's proposal has nothing to do with his economic status. I see no evidence that Juliette considers Nick "less fortunate" than her.
You're missing the point of slumming. The person slumming doesn't slum in some effort to bestow their shining personality on another they consider less fortunate. They slum because they're looking for something that they're not finding within their own socio-economic class. No one's saying Juliette didn't like Nick or considered herself above him in some way.
(09-14-2015, 04:04 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Lacking any data to the contrary, Juliette and Nick are in the same socio-economic class. As such neither can possibly "slum" with the other.
I beg to differ, but Juliette is not in the same social-economic class as Nick. I would agree with you if Nick went to medical school and decided to go into disease research and Juliette became a DVM. But he did not. He's a detective. She's a DVM. They run in different circles and just happened to hook up.
Quote:Juliette's rejection of Nick's proposal has nothing to do with his economic status. I see no evidence that Juliette considers Nick "less fortunate" than her.
You're missing the point of slumming. The person slumming doesn't slum in some effort to bestow their shining personality on another they consider less fortunate. They slum because they're looking for something that they're not finding within their own socio-economic class. No one's saying Juliette didn't like Nick or considered herself above him in some way.
In order for Juliette to "slum" with Nick, he would need to be below the poverty line and live in a depressed area. Compensation data indicate they have comparable income and they live under the same roof.
(09-15-2015, 04:33 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]In order for Juliette to "slum" with Nick, he would need to be below the poverty line and live in a depressed area. Compensation data indicate they have comparable income and they live under the same roof.
Sorry, but I don't agree with your compensation data. You brought in some online statistics, even though you yourself claim you have no idea of Juliette and Nick's income, their assets, liabilities, etc. You didn't take into consideration that Juliette appears to own her own practice. You didn't show compensation for a DMV who treats both farm and domestic animals. You didn't take into consideration that Juliette might also treat exotic pets. You also didn't take into consideration what compensation would be needed for Juliette to purchase her house. In addition, instead of giving us the make, model, and year of her car, you simply chalk it off as something common and bring your friend into the picture, stating he can afford to drive a Bentley but instead drives a Chevette, and in the end finish it by stating we can't judge a book by its cover. What?!!
You insist slumming actually means going into the slums in this case when it does not. You continually bash Juliette, calling her anything and everything you can think of. But suddenly, because I brought up an argument about Juliette slumming with Nick, you make innuendos about my 'contempt' for his character. The thread isn't about Nick or bashing him and I said nothing of the kind.
If you really don't believe Juliette was slumming, come up with something more than some useless website data, where you provide the top dollar salaries of top officials that has no bearing on the debate.
(09-14-2015, 02:15 PM)hansel77 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2015, 01:22 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2015, 10:08 AM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2015, 09:28 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2015, 07:17 AM)eric Wrote: [ -> ]There seems to be a pretty grim attitude here concerning love. Slumming, only being with someone in the same socio-economic caste as yourself, looking down on the someone because they are not a catch, or are out of your league. Nick and Juliette were both good looking, youngish, doing well, getting along, Nick bought a ring for Juliette, their friends(non-wessen) thought they were great together and in love. If you cannot love a person who is slightly "different" than yourself, you seem to have settled for someone "safe", which to me makes me wonder if you love them or just a clone of yourself. I would worry if you did not think the other person was special and offered you more than safety. Differences can be the spice of life, even if they give you occasional heart burn
Nick tried to explain Wessen World when Juliette was in danger. In the trailer he said he didn't yet understand a lot of it himself. It was very disjointed because he was just starting to feel his way.He explained it better to Truble because he had learned more himself.
Hello Eric,
You have make valid points. The NBC Recap of 1.16, "the thing with feathers" reads:
"Nick pulls out the engagement ring and asks Juliette to marry him. Juliette is hesitant and eventually says she can't. She loves him deeply and wants to marry him someday, but she knows Nick is still keeping things from her. Juliette understands Aunt Marie's death was hard on Nick, yet until he can let her back in, she's won't say yes."
She "loves him deeply and wants to marry him someday." She won't say yes until Nick "lets her back in." IMHO, there is no indication she believes she is "slumming" and considers Nick out of her league.
The compensation data I presented earlier indicate they both would have annual income in the 80k - 110k range. IMHO, they are in the same socio-economic class. As such, "slumming" would not be possible for Nick and Juliette.
Slumming was possible for King Freddie and Bad Boy Kenneth since they are royals and Juliette is a commoner. They duped Juliette into helping them murder a bunch of people and attempt to capture Diana. Now all three of them are dead. They received their just deserts.
New Guy
And yet.....as you yourself have often said, he proposed multiple times and she never accepted. And, the recaps never go on to state that she continued to love him deeply. Sorry, this isn't evidence that she wasn't slumming.
Lacking any data to the contrary, Juliette and Nick are in the same socio-economic class. As such neither can possibly "slum" with the other.
Juliette's rejection of Nick's proposal has nothing to do with his economic status. I see no evidence that Juliette considers Nick "less fortunate" than her.
Juliette said no at the time because she felt at the time that nick was not being fully open/honest with her. With everything that had taken place up to that moment she felt that while he loved her there was something he was not telling her and she wanted him to come-out and say whatever it was.
I just re-watch season one and I am more certain now that the writers/producers drop the ball with their development of this character. I believe that should have incorporated her into nick's identity by episode 13/14 still have her lose her memory of him at the end of the season. Bring back her memory earlier in season two, probably around episode 9 or 10. Build up the character and still remove at the end of season 4. I believe viewers would be more invested in her than they were. If Rosalee was removed instead of Juliette the up-roar from the fans would be more intense.
I rewatched the series and I really think the writing was on the wall for Juliette in the pilot. Her and Nick were doomed and Adalind and Nick are intertwined from the get go. When Marie tells him to leave her is because the Grimm life is no place for a normal person. I think Juliette had a target on her back from that point on. I think eventually Hank will fall as well if they don't get him involved with someone who is Wessen because currently he is really not part of that world. Wu is the exception because he is odd ball enough to be mistaken for a wesen lol.
Greetings Grimmsters,
As you can see on this thread, Irukandji is questioning the compensation data I used in estimating income amounts for Nick and Juliette. No other data has been presented. I identified the source of the data.
Nick is a Detective for Portland Police Bureau. The pay data is from:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/454707
Juliette is a veterinarian at the Roseway Veterinary Hospital. It seems this is a fictional facility. Wiki indicates it is a “domestic animal clinic.” The pay data can be found at:
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Veterinar...d,-OR.html
and:
https://www.sokanu.com/careers/veterinar...ry/Oregon/
IMHO, this is not “useless website data” but substantive to any discussion requiring estimated wage income. Unless viable data to the contrary is provided, they both would have annual income in the 80k - 110k range and are in the same socio-economic class.
By the way, since Sokanu used US BLS data, here is their web page:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291131.htm
New Guy
(09-15-2015, 09:59 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]Greetings Grimmsters,
As you can see on this thread, Irukandji is questioning the compensation data I used in estimating income amounts for Nick and Juliette. No other data has been presented. I identified the source of the data.
Nick is a Detective for Portland Police Bureau. The pay data is from:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/454707
Juliette is a veterinarian at the Roseway Veterinary Hospital. It seems this is a fictional facility. Wiki indicates it is a “domestic animal clinic.” The pay data can be found at:
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Veterinar...d,-OR.html
and:
https://www.sokanu.com/careers/veterinar...ry/Oregon/
IMHO, this is not “useless website data” but substantive to any discussion requiring estimated wage income. Unless viable data to the contrary is provided, they both would have annual income in the 80k - 110k range and are in the same socio-economic class.
By the way, since Sokanu used SS BLS data, here is their web page:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291131.htm
New Guy
I tend to believe the Portland PD salary base is fairly accurate. When my father was in law enforcement, it was common to release the salary categories of officers and detectives.
However, I do not give credence to the websites you posted that contain veterinarian salaries. I've often compared my own salary to internet websites, and it's a complete waste of time. I suppose a person could do some research and find out just how these websites obtain their date, how it's compiled, which have the most recent and accurate data, how often data is obtained, etc., if they wanted to get an accurate picture.
But even at that, Juliette's and Nick's salaries will never be made known to us. If you want to debate economic status using dollar figures, I'll go along with that. I would put Nick at around $90K, going with your website. Juliette, would be in a much higher range, about $150-$175K.
I'm basing part of her salary range on the fact that she owns a house. The house appears to be older style, but well kept. Looking at Portland real estate websites, I put it at a value of $399k and up, dependent upon the style, area, square footage and number of bedrooms.
Because I've never seen fellow DVMs in the office or even veterinary staff, I'm going out on a limb here to say that I believe Juliette owns her own practice. Running her own business would take considerable capital in Portland. I know this firsthand from my brother, who owns a business in Portland. Going up the road just a few blocks from his previous address raised his expenses dramatically. But even getting to his previous address so he could be available to his customers cost him some cash.
So, the way I see it, economically wise, Juliette is still in a different class than Nick.
(09-15-2015, 06:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (09-15-2015, 09:59 AM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]Greetings Grimmsters,
As you can see on this thread, Irukandji is questioning the compensation data I used in estimating income amounts for Nick and Juliette. No other data has been presented. I identified the source of the data.
Nick is a Detective for Portland Police Bureau. The pay data is from:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/454707
Juliette is a veterinarian at the Roseway Veterinary Hospital. It seems this is a fictional facility. Wiki indicates it is a “domestic animal clinic.” The pay data can be found at:
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Veterinar...d,-OR.html
and:
https://www.sokanu.com/careers/veterinar...ry/Oregon/
IMHO, this is not “useless website data” but substantive to any discussion requiring estimated wage income. Unless viable data to the contrary is provided, they both would have annual income in the 80k - 110k range and are in the same socio-economic class.
By the way, since Sokanu used SS BLS data, here is their web page:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291131.htm
New Guy
I tend to believe the Portland PD salary base is fairly accurate. When my father was in law enforcement, it was common to release the salary categories of officers and detectives.
However, I do not give credence to the websites you posted that contain veterinarian salaries. I've often compared my own salary to internet websites, and it's a complete waste of time. I suppose a person could do some research and find out just how these websites obtain their date, how it's compiled, which have the most recent and accurate data, how often data is obtained, etc., if they wanted to get an accurate picture.
But even at that, Juliette's and Nick's salaries will never be made known to us. If you want to debate economic status using dollar figures, I'll go along with that. I would put Nick at around $90K, going with your website. Juliette, would be in a much higher range, about $150-$175K.
I'm basing part of her salary range on the fact that she owns a house. The house appears to be older style, but well kept. Looking at Portland real estate websites, I put it at a value of $399k and up, dependent upon the style, area, square footage and number of bedrooms.
Because I've never seen fellow DVMs in the office or even veterinary staff, I'm going out on a limb here to say that I believe Juliette owns her own practice. Running her own business would take considerable capital in Portland. I know this firsthand from my brother, who owns a business in Portland. Going up the road just a few blocks from his previous address raised his expenses dramatically. But even getting to his previous address so he could be available to his customers cost him some cash.
So, the way I see it, economically wise, Juliette is still in a different class than Nick.
Once again you failed to provide substantive data. Your WAG of her pay is vacuous compared to data published by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
(09-15-2015, 07:26 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]Once again you failed to provide substantive data. Your WAG of her pay is vacuous compared to data published by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Your 'WAG' of her pay? What is that?
(09-15-2015, 07:40 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (09-15-2015, 07:26 PM)New Guy Wrote: [ -> ]Once again you failed to provide substantive data. Your WAG of her pay is vacuous compared to data published by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Your 'WAG' of her pay? What is that?
Sorry for the technical jargon:
wild ass guess
A Wild Ass Guess (WAG) is an estimate that is based upon experience, similarity and 'windage' and does not have immediately verifiable data that could be used to substantiate the estimate.