This was not one of my ideas to start with others have made me think that this is possible and likely.
The Grimm's we meet have been the good guy types. But shouldn't we also figure as any group large or small not all are good guys.
Can we see mob Grimm's, hit person Grimm's, or like the one episode were the wesen wanted to be a Grimm was the worst Grimm possible.
Do you think the series will have a real Grimm that Nick has to hunt down and think of that fight?
(07-02-2015, 06:03 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]The Grimm's we meet have been the good guy types.
I thought this was an interesting statement and so I singled it out. What do you see about the Grimms that makes them good guys? None of them strike me as good. They seem to walk a fine line between good and bad.
(07-07-2015, 07:41 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-02-2015, 06:03 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]The Grimm's we meet have been the good guy types.
I thought this was an interesting statement and so I singled it out. What do you see about the Grimms that makes them good guys? None of them strike me as good. They seem to walk a fine line between good and bad.
I have to agree, I am having trouble seeing the Grimms we have been exposed to as good (I might grant an exception to Truble -not sure). Nick is as dishonest as they come. He has show repeatedly bad judgment and yet he sits in judgment in matters of life or death over others. Notice the wesen have a council, that apparently is a group of individuals, which by its very nature tends to quell the passions that cloud ones judgment. Nick just reacts and the law of the land is whatever Nick feels it should be at a moment in time.
Essentially I like the show a lot more when I view it as fantasy. When you examine the underpinnings you find you are likely cheering the acts of a relativity immature vigilante who doles out capital punishment at whim. In some ways there is a parallel between Grimm and the Sopranos, where the fans of the show develop empathy for lead characters who are defacto sociopaths.
(07-07-2015, 10:10 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ] (07-07-2015, 07:41 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-02-2015, 06:03 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]The Grimm's we meet have been the good guy types.
I thought this was an interesting statement and so I singled it out. What do you see about the Grimms that makes them good guys? None of them strike me as good. They seem to walk a fine line between good and bad.
I have to agree, I am having trouble seeing the Grimms we have been exposed to as good (I might grant an exception to Truble -not sure). Nick is as dishonest as they come. He has show repeatedly bad judgment and yet he sits in judgment in matters of life or death over others. Notice the wesen have a council, that apparently is a group of individuals, which by its very nature tends to quell the passions that cloud ones judgment. Nick just reacts and the law of the land is whatever Nick feels it should be at a moment in time.
Essentially I like the show a lot more when I view it as fantasy. When you examine the underpinnings you find you are likely cheering the acts of a relativity immature vigilante who doles out capital punishment at whim. In some ways there is a parallel between Grimm and the Sopranos, where the fans of the show develop empathy for lead characters who are defacto sociopaths.
Never watched the Sopranos so can't answer that statement but will take your word for it. An we are debating a fantasy I was looking at it as such good vs bad. The age old question does the ends justify the means.
I think Grimm's have always walked a thin line that to me is a given as irukandji stated but now the question is who but Grimm can make these decisions the world doesn't know about wesen. Now we can go back and forth on the right wrong of this but that's the series.
Some of the wesen case (which is all we see Hank and Nick work) have answers we know but no one else would. As such I look at it this way has Nick or Hank ever killed a wesen that had not attacked them (if I wrong please correct me) answer no. Has Nick let wesen go that could have charges could have been made yes. Back to being a Grimm unless the general world is made aware of wesen how would you get a jury of your peer's? So we have Grimm's making these decisions.
What about these points?
I think Nick and Truble are basically good people, they are just in situations that often call for them to do things they would not normally do. This happens in the real world, not everything is black and white.
But, on the original point, I would like to see a Grimm bad guy. Maybe someone who extorts from wessen, or kills wessen for money. Then Nick and Truble have to take him down before everything goes to hell. Like all the trust they've built in the wessen community.
And then of course how do you define "good" and "bad"? Is a Grimm who kills all Wessen bad? If his/her loved ones were killed and then he does vendetta killings on the Wessen's relatives--Hatfilelds and McCoys? One who is paid by the Council to deal with Wessen who break Wessen law? Grimms who shirk their duty to kill bad Wessen because it is a dangerous thing to do--all Grimms may not be brave enough to do their jobs--forget the name of the Grimm who gave Nick the key on his deathbed. He said he couldn't do what his grandfather, father and Nick did.
(07-08-2015, 07:20 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]Never watched the Sopranos so can't answer that statement but will take your word for it. An we are debating a fantasy I was looking at it as such good vs bad. The age old question does the ends justify the means.
I think Grimm's have always walked a thin line that to me is a given as irukandji stated but now the question is who but Grimm can make these decisions the world doesn't know about wesen. Now we can go back and forth on the right wrong of this but that's the series.
Some of the wesen case (which is all we see Hank and Nick work) have answers we know but no one else would. As such I look at it this way has Nick or Hank ever killed a wesen that had not attacked them (if I wrong please correct me) answer no. Has Nick let wesen go that could have charges could have been made yes. Back to being a Grimm unless the general world is made aware of wesen how would you get a jury of your peer's? So we have Grimm's making these decisions.
What about these points?
According to Renard most of the crimes committed as wesen related. So, by extrapolation you might say, given our penchant (U,S, ethnocentric bias alert) for a system that is intended to allow a guilty man go free rather than convict an innocent man. I would say the system outside of the Grimm world works. Nick and Hank were solving crimes and busting baddies before Nick was aware he was a Grimm. Given Renard says most crimes are wesen related, I would say the system as is works pretty well.
(07-08-2015, 04:56 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]According to Renard most of the crimes committed as wesen related. So, by extrapolation you might say, given our penchant (U,S, ethnocentric bias alert) for a system that is intended to allow a guilty man go free rather than convict an innocent man. I would say the system outside of the Grimm world works. Nick and Hank were solving crimes and busting baddies before Nick was aware he was a Grimm. Given Renard says most crimes are wesen related, I would say the system as is works pretty well.
I agree with this and even though this is a fantasy, it really makes me question if a Grimm is more effective than the regular human policeman.
I was watching the Grimm episode, The Hour of Death last week and it made me think of a question I wanted to ask. Nick and Hank are questioning the kidnapper of the young girl. The kidnapper panics, woges, runs, and is pursued by Nick, who trips him up. While he's down, Nick begins to punch him savagely until Hank intervenes and restrains him.
If Nick didn't know the guy was wesen, would he have handled the situation differently or would he have proceeded to punch the guy out anyway? I'm thinking not and it makes me wonder if simply the fact that the perpetrator is wesen brings out a very violent streak in Nick. Maybe a streak he cannot control? I'm not saying this always happens, but it did during this episode. If Hank had to restrain him, we know he's way out of line.
(07-08-2015, 07:42 PM)irukandji Wrote: [ -> ] (07-08-2015, 04:56 PM)izzy Wrote: [ -> ]According to Renard most of the crimes committed as wesen related. So, by extrapolation you might say, given our penchant (U,S, ethnocentric bias alert) for a system that is intended to allow a guilty man go free rather than convict an innocent man. I would say the system outside of the Grimm world works. Nick and Hank were solving crimes and busting baddies before Nick was aware he was a Grimm. Given Renard says most crimes are wesen related, I would say the system as is works pretty well.
I agree with this and even though this is a fantasy, it really makes me question if a Grimm is more effective than the regular human policeman.
I was watching the Grimm episode, The Hour of Death last week and it made me think of a question I wanted to ask. Nick and Hank are questioning the kidnapper of the young girl. The kidnapper panics, woges, runs, and is pursued by Nick, who trips him up. While he's down, Nick begins to punch him savagely until Hank intervenes and restrains him.
If Nick didn't know the guy was wesen, would he have handled the situation differently or would he have proceeded to punch the guy out anyway? I'm thinking not and it makes me wonder if simply the fact that the perpetrator is wesen brings out a very violent streak in Nick. Maybe a streak he cannot control? I'm not saying this always happens, but it did during this episode. If Hank had to restrain him, we know he's way out of line.
You have a point I do think Grimm's when they know someone is a wesen does change them. You didn't add that Nick seen him burning pictures of the kidnapped girl and then woged. Grimm's do know that a woge wesen can be more powerful look at Monroe and Reanard. Someone posted (sorry can't give them credit) when wesen see that Nick's a Grimm changes they reaction from what it would be with a regular cop. Leading to a different police/ felon interaction. In this case we also have the Juliette Nick problems going on we could add that to Nick's mind set.
(07-09-2015, 06:45 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: [ -> ]You have a point I do think Grimm's when they know someone is a wesen does change them. You didn't add that Nick seen him burning pictures of the kidnapped girl and then woged. Grimm's do know that a woge wesen can be more powerful look at Monroe and Reanard. Someone posted (sorry can't give them credit) when wesen see that Nick's a Grimm changes they reaction from what it would be with a regular cop. Leading to a different police/ felon interaction. In this case we also have the Juliette Nick problems going on we could add that to Nick's mind set.
In your opinion, would the burning pictures justify Nick's rage at the wesen?