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+--- Thread: Kelly B. what me may still learn (/Thread-Kelly-B-what-me-may-still-learn)
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 12:52 PM)irukandji Wrote:I would say none... Based on Monroe talking to same wesen when said they need to learn how to control their inner best.(01-29-2016, 12:26 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(01-29-2016, 12:16 PM)irukandji Wrote: See my issue, Adriano, is that Nick doesn't have empathy or sympathy for wesen. In fact, to me, I believe he views himself as superior to them. He's actually quite arrogant in that regard.
And them we got the the same point.... The writers don't give us much about the characters...
All we have about the characters is our own impressions that in the end is based our own way of filling in the gaps left by the writers...
Talking about Nick.... If we compare him with the characters, who isn't a sociopath in this show?
Good question. I have commented that the wesen seem more human than the humans themselves. But, when when Monroe and Rosalee woge, just how much empathy or sympathy do they have?
I would say they have many... Based on the episode when Monroe's mother went to the spice shop to talk to Rosalee.... She asked Rosalee for them to woge. This ritual has a name that I don't remember.
This ritual means that both wesen woge one to the other showing their true nature... And showing trust in each other....
What is the answer????
I think the problem is that the writers don't care about the characters... Those kind of thinks would be very interesting to be developed in the show... At least for me....
But.... Keys, royals, Diana's, HW, BC, Eve's.... Are more importants then those other things....
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - gazelle - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 01:07 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(01-29-2016, 12:52 PM)irukandji Wrote:I would say none... Based on Monroe talking to same wesen when said they need to learn how to control their inner best.(01-29-2016, 12:26 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(01-29-2016, 12:16 PM)irukandji Wrote: See my issue, Adriano, is that Nick doesn't have empathy or sympathy for wesen. In fact, to me, I believe he views himself as superior to them. He's actually quite arrogant in that regard.
And them we got the the same point.... The writers don't give us much about the characters...
All we have about the characters is our own impressions that in the end is based our own way of filling in the gaps left by the writers...
Talking about Nick.... If we compare him with the characters, who isn't a sociopath in this show?
Good question. I have commented that the wesen seem more human than the humans themselves. But, when when Monroe and Rosalee woge, just how much empathy or sympathy do they have?
I would say they have many... Based on the episode when Monroe's mother went to the spice shop to talk to Rosalee.... She asked Rosalee for them to woge. This ritual has a name that I don't remember.
This ritual means that both wesen woge one to the other showing their true nature... And showing trust in each other....
What is the answer????
I think the problem is that the writers don't care about the characters... Those kind of thinks would be very interesting to be developed in the show... At least for me....
But.... Keys, royals, Diana's, HW, BC, Eve's.... Are more importants then those other things....
I agree with you that a big problem with this show is that the writers and creative directors don't seem to care about character development as much as they care about plot, and even then I think some of the plotlines are silly or unrealistic.
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - syscrash - 01-29-2016
Knowing wesen and understanding wesen are two different things. Just like a man can never know what it is to be pregnant even if he is an ob gyn. You may sympathize with their condition. You may have an intellectual understanding. You may even understand the ramifications of the changes to their body. But you will never know the feeling.
Monroe and Rosalee engagement dinner provided the best narrative of what it is like to become a wesen. didn't their conversation sound exactly like the conversation parents have to explain puberty to their kids. The term "becoming a wesen" I am referring to wogeing, and indication of the change in your body. Until a wesen woges there is no difference from other people. This was the point of Iron Hanns. It is not the woge but the change that takes place with the on set of the woge. It is the woge that indicates that other changes are happening. In humans it is puberty. Something all females can relate to. imagine having no one to tell you what was happening to your body.
Part of the change is the change in ones desires. In blutbad's there is this desire to hunt. In hexenbiest it seems to be the desire for vengeance. With humans puberty brings on the desire for sex. With out control all three could become a very big problem. I will agree the desire to hunt the as Monroee say s "the legal stuff", may not be the same as having unrestricted sex. but neither is something society would find acceptable.
Now apply this to Juliette, it is amazing how her progression matches that of a girl going through puberty without any instruction. You have the same aggressive and irrational outbreaks. You then have the acceptance coupled with the realization of the pleasure that comes with the change. this is followed by acting out on these desires. They even have the parents Nick and group that are disproving of her promiscuity.
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - irukandji - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 03:32 PM)syscrash Wrote: Knowing wesen and understanding wesen are two different things. Just like a man can never know what it is to be pregnant even if he is an ob gyn. You may sympathize with their condition. You may have an intellectual understanding. You may even understand the ramifications of the changes to their body. But you will never know the feeling.
I would say a person can know as well as understand. Take the topic of pregnancy. A man knows what pregnancy is. There are a million books out there on understanding what happens to a woman during pregnancy. So a man can understand the changes involved.
The thing a man cannot do is feel what the woman is feeling during pregnancy. He can't say to her, "I know how you feel" because he does not.
This is what I mean with Nick. He knows wesen, he can understand them to the extent of what they choose to share with him or what he finds in the diaries. He cannot feel what wesen feel.
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 03:59 PM)irukandji Wrote:Doesn't Nick really know what a wesen feel?(01-29-2016, 03:32 PM)syscrash Wrote: Knowing wesen and understanding wesen are two different things. Just like a man can never know what it is to be pregnant even if he is an ob gyn. You may sympathize with their condition. You may have an intellectual understanding. You may even understand the ramifications of the changes to their body. But you will never know the feeling.
I would say a person can know as well as understand. Take the topic of pregnancy. A man knows what pregnancy is. There are a million books out there on understanding what happens to a woman during pregnancy. So a man can understand the changes involved.
The thing a man cannot do is feel what the woman is feeling during pregnancy. He can't say to her, "I know how you feel" because he does not.
This is what I mean with Nick. He knows wesen, he can understand them to the extent of what they choose to share with him or what he finds in the diaries. He cannot feel what wesen feel.
I will explain this question and actually I am proposing a debate about grimm in general, not only about Nick... There are same time ago a debate about how wesen recognize a Grimm. This was prior to the black eye thing. Some people argued that a Grimm should have some kind of special woge that only wesen would be able to see...
When a wesen woge to a Grimm, how we know his eyes get black... Automatically just like as a wesen woge when another wesen woge to him... The Grimm becomes stronger.... Just like a wesen when he/she wages... In Nick's case he demonstrates some of his special powers he got from wesen when he met those wesen like the zombie effect....
Question... Is a Grimm some kind of wesen?
The writers never explained exactly what a Grimm is....
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - syscrash - 01-29-2016
I have argued the Nick is now wesen. Like Monroe said any idiot can woge. Then he went into the change within that makes you wesen. It is how you feel, how you body reacts. It is the ability to experience this change that makes someone wesen. We have seen creatures, and people that have become creates on the show. The show makes a point that they are not wesen. Even though hexenbiest always have access to their powers. There is an inner change that takes place when they woge. Like other wesen the woge brings on this heightened since of awareness and aggression. The woge is the ability to bring out our primal selves. When it comes to Grimm's there is no change in state. Using Trubel and Kelly as examples they are on point, fully aware and very aggressive all the time. Grimm's live in battle mode. Nick is the exception. His hearing is all the time. But after the zombie attack. He is the only Grimm that is able to change his state. Problem is unlike wesen Nick's change is more like a blackout condition. Each time someone had to waken him from this altered state. If He can become conscious of this state, he would fit the Wesen classification. At this point he is like Krumpas who does not fit the wesen classification. The show uses the who can see the altered state as a visual clue to define wesen.
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - irukandji - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 04:44 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Doesn't Nick really know what a wesen feel?
I will explain this question and actually I am proposing a debate about grimm in general, not only about Nick... There are same time ago a debate about how wesen recognize a Grimm. This was prior to the black eye thing. Some people argued that a Grimm should have some kind of special woge that only wesen would be able to see...
When a wesen woge to a Grimm, how we know his eyes get black... Automatically just like as a wesen woge when another wesen woge to him... The Grimm becomes stronger.... Just like a wesen when he/she wages... In Nick's case he demonstrates some of his special powers he got from wesen when he met those wesen like the zombie effect....
Question... Is a Grimm some kind of wesen?
The writers never explained exactly what a Grimm is....
The whole black eyeball Grimm thing and wesen response, "Waaaaaaah...............you're a Grimm, I need to run away now!" has always seemed a little on the ludicrous side to me. And the explanation that a wesen sees his soul in a Grimm's eyes is even more ridiculous.
Chalk it up to another moonhole anomaly that the writers think is cool but then they never have to explain it. When I think about the implications of this, I started to have a thousand questions. To begin with, I consider the woge a kind of temporary insanity that can become permanent if a wesen stays woged for a prolonged period of time.
The whole issue of a wesen soul is a really fascinating concept to me. What does a wesen soul look like? As they only see it when they are woged and in a sort of insanity state, what are they seeing that's so terrifying? And why isn't that covered in Nick's diaries? For that matter, why isn't Monroe enlightening us with a background on what's really going on. Just in my opinion, it seems like Grimms could use this nifty little trick to their advantage and make some kind of a mental weapon to use. Then they wouldn't have to bring some dumb crossbow or ax with them to fight.
Just some thoughts thrown out for discussion.
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - izzy - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 05:56 PM)irukandji Wrote: The whole black eyeball Grimm thing and wesen response, "Waaaaaaah...............you're a Grimm, I need to run away now!" has always seemed a little on the ludicrous side to me.
Hmmm...I was under the impression that with the once notable exception of Nick, that Grimm's pretty much killed every wesen they encountered as their default position. And add in the tidbit Monroe gave us, that parents tell stories of Grimm's coming to get their children to get them to behave. The latter bing sensationalism that gets embedded. It seesm to me, if Nick is a new type of Grimm who did not default to, oh a new type of wesen let's kill it, then the reasion makes sense.
I mean Trubel's default seems to be kill them. Aunt Marie reputation was uh...well she apparently was one disturbing little lady. So, it seems to fit to me. What am I missing?
Kindest regards...
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - syscrash - 01-29-2016
I see Wesen fear of Grimms the same as we would have of Vampires or Werewolves. At one time fear of the unknown, the power that wesen posse. I could see all Grimms would kill first and never get a change to know wesen. The fact that Wesen even when hidden in plan site could be seen would also add to the fear. Trubel would kill first, because Grimm fear would cause the wesen to attack. A self fulling cycle. I am scared of you so I attack. You kill me, adding to the fear. Even with Monroe nick saw him as a criminal first monster second. The monster part did not really scare him, he was to focused on the criminal. Luckly this encounter was with someone not given to superstition. That is what the Grimm fear is, superstition. A superstition that is self full filling.
RE: Kelly B. what me may still learn - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 01-29-2016
(01-29-2016, 05:56 PM)irukandji Wrote: The whole black eyeball Grimm thing and wesen response, "Waaaaaaah...............you're a Grimm, I need to run away now!" has always seemed a little on the ludicrous side to me. And the explanation that a wesen sees his soul in a Grimm's eyes is even more ridiculous.
Just looking in another direction now....
It has being said that the eyes are the mirror of the soul...
What if grimm is a king of wesen.... And dark eyes is not the nature of the wesen the Grimm is seeing.... But the color of the wesen grimm soul?