Grimm Forum

So Nick doesn't find anything wrong with lying and fraud in order to perpetuate a good cause. Figures. He never was the brightest brain in the bunch.

I didn't like the episode at all. I found Dwight completely unbelievable and his message of taking on sins even more so. I thought Nick and the gang had a tactless attitude toward religion.

Eve as Renard sleeping with Rachel. I had hoped Grimm wouldn't take this story arc but apparently it must have been too tempting for the creative team. Complete and total ick factor in my opinion.

(04-11-2016, 12:18 PM)rmp Wrote: [ -> ]I enjoyed the episode and thought the bed scene was funny.

Some nitpicks:

1. The way the security guard died was a bit contrived. He got pushed back, fell, and hit the back of his head squarely on the only rock around.

2. I think the writers forgot about their own lore again. In season 3, there was an episode called "The Show Must Go On" that had Wessen in a carnival doing the same thing as this preacher: purposely voging in front of people over and over again. Rosalee said in that episode that Wessen that do that often eventually lose control of their beast side.

http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/The_Show_Must_Go_On

I wondered about that too.
Plus, even without the council, you'd think other wesen would catch on to what he was doing and be pissed.
The episode also reminded me of the one with the sheep-like wesen being misled by the lowen minister.
Grimm does seem to be taking aim at Christianity/religion pretty regularly.

Quote:Putting myself in their place, if I didn't know anything about wesen and was exposed to all that, even as someone who is a big fan of science and not particularly religious, I could see myself doing something akin to what they did, which is why I think their legal responsibility for his death is diminished by the circumstances surrounding the event itself.

Diminished by the circumstances. Killing someone does not save them, they are dead. By your reasoning a viable solution to a catastrophic disease is to cut it out. Even if it means removing vital organs. The reason at least they will no longer have the disease.

(04-11-2016, 12:48 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Putting myself in their place, if I didn't know anything about wesen and was exposed to all that, even as someone who is a big fan of science and not particularly religious, I could see myself doing something akin to what they did, which is why I think their legal responsibility for his death is diminished by the circumstances surrounding the event itself.

Diminished by the circumstances. Killing someone does not save them, they are dead. By your reasoning a viable solution to a catastrophic disease is to cut it out. Even if it means removing vital organs. The reason at least they will no longer have the disease.

That's a pretty bizarre way to interpret it.
If you want to use a disease based analogy, then think of cancer. Surgeons often do remove organs trying to save lives and it doesn't always work.
You wouldn't, however, charge a doctor with murder if a patient died while he or she was trying to remove a tumor that was, for example, growing in the patient's brain.

More importantly, justice is about reasonable behavior. If someone kidnaps someone and performs an exorcism on them in "real life" that results in their death, then generally that's murder.
The reason I consider the example from the episode is that it takes place in the "Grimm world" where the act of wogueing greatly changes the equations. You can also think of it like temporary insanity. The justice system allows exceptions for people who are not able to distinguish right from wrong by virtue of mental illness. In the case of "The Believer" the people who participated in the exorcism couldn't distinguish between the devil and a wesen because they didn't know what a wesen was. That to me seems like something well beyond their control.

Quote:The justice system allows exceptions for people who are not able to distinguish right from wrong by virtue of mental illness. In the case of "The Believer" the people who participated in the exorcism couldn't distinguish between the devil and a wesen because they didn't know what a wesen was. That to me seems like something well beyond their control.

That is the exact logic that is used to justify honor killings, gay bashing, and lynchings. Because people who are different from what some group feels is not acceptable, the victims death is justifiable. By your logic stoning the sinner is Ok. I mean you must drive out the daemons, so their soul can go to heaven. Do you see the problem with religious ideology. How many religious programs, or political leaders shout from their soapbox about the sins of being gay. This leads to people accepting gay aversion therapy.

I find it interesting how people find it offensive that the show make a mockery of revivals. The show is not making fun of peoples beliefs. It is making a mockery of peoples gullibility in the belief in miracles. As the episode shows if believing in something gives someone solace so be it. It is when these belief become your reality instead of a belief and start to control your actions that is becomes a problem. It is when being gay justifies aversion therapy to drive out the sin, that it becomes a problem.

(04-11-2016, 03:26 PM)syscrash Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:The justice system allows exceptions for people who are not able to distinguish right from wrong by virtue of mental illness. In the case of "The Believer" the people who participated in the exorcism couldn't distinguish between the devil and a wesen because they didn't know what a wesen was. That to me seems like something well beyond their control.

That is the exact logic that is used to justify honor killings, gay bashing, and lynchings. Because people who are different from what some group feels is not acceptable, the victims death is justifiable. By your logic stoning the sinner is Ok. I mean you must drive out the daemons, so their soul can go to heaven. Do you see the problem with religious ideology. How many religious programs, or political leaders shout from their soapbox about the sins of being gay. This leads to people accepting gay aversion therapy.

I find it interesting how people find it offensive that the show make a mockery of revivals. The show is not making fun of peoples beliefs. It is making a mockery of peoples gullibility in the belief in miracles. As the episode shows if believing in something gives someone solace so be it. It is when these belief become your reality instead of a belief and start to control your actions that is becomes a problem. It is when being gay justifies aversion therapy to drive out the sin, that it becomes a problem.

The examples you provided are not only utterly ridiculous, they are patently offensive.
If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but that is not a valid reason for launching an attack that is as vile as it baseless.
Shame on you for sinking so low just because someone who doesn't see things your way pointed out the shortcomings in your argument.
All you've succeeded in proving is that you're easily frustrated, incredibly immature and exceptionally mean spirited.

Quote:The examples you provided are not only utterly ridiculous, they are patently offensive.
If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but that is not a valid reason for launching an attack that is as vile as it baseless.
Shame on you for sinking so low just because someone who doesn't see things your way pointed out the shortcomings in your argument.
All you've succeeded in proving is that you're easily frustrated, incredibly immature and exceptionally mean spirited.

You response is not only offensive but scary. It is people with you thinking that make it unsafe to walk in certain areas. My examples rediculas, ask the kid that did two months in aversion therapy. Having scripture quoted to him night and day.
My argument is based on the idiocy of religious belief determining what is fact. In my explanation I used the current biggest group currently being persecuted LGBT. You can run down the list of politicians that take the position that being gay is a sin and has no place in society. There is no fact that can contradict that as being a bigoted position. That in 2016 laws are being passed to exclude gays is outrageous. When asked every excuse given these people point to the bible as their reason. You have thousands and thousands of people who are gay yet religious nuts want us to believe it is a mental condition.
I had grandparents that where lynching for no other reason the some bible thumping idiot felt they where an abomination to god. Is prejudice and bigotry and opinion sure it is, but it is a dangerous one. When your righteous indignation reaches to the point of I need to kill you to save your soul. That is a mental illness.

Quote:The justice system allows exceptions for people who are not able to distinguish right from wrong by virtue of mental illness.

Even in Florida or Texas, you walk in a court with the I feared for my life because he was possessed by the devil. Even there that excuse would not fly. Oh yea you will have supporters, but then you also have supporters for aversion therapy.

We talk about Muslims and jihad. The KKK carry a cross and can quote chapter are verse why they are right. You may find my take on it offensive. But ask the kid watching his grandfather swing as the crowed quotes scripture saying you should be thankful for saving his soul.

by the way can't find anyone to ask. Ask me I watched as the so called good people prayed for his soul as he swung back and forth. Ask me I was there when I was made to feel like I was broken, like I was made to feel like crap. all in the name a Jesus. Maybe you never have been chased home will kids yell at you how you will burn in hell.

Hello Syscrash,
While you are speaking with the kid watching [his] grandfather swing as the [crowd] quotes scripture saying you should be thankful for saving his soul perhaps you should also take the time to speak with the man who was dying in some dirty street of Calcutta before Mother Teresa took him in, bathed, clothed and fed him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
To bring it closer to home why not volunteer at the Salvation Army?
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/
You may find more fulfillment in helping others than in criticizing Christians.
New Guy

Quote:Hello Syscrash,
While you are speaking with the kid watching [his] grandfather swing as the [crowd] quotes scripture saying you should be thankful for saving his soul perhaps you should also take the time to speak with the man dying in some dirty street of Calcutta who Mother Teresa took in, bathed, clothed and fed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
To bring it closer to home why not volunteer at the Salvation Army?
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/
You may find more fulfillment in helping others than in criticizing Christians.
New Guy

What I am questing is bigotry in the name of religion. What I am questing is the religious idea that saving your soul is more important then saving your life. What I am questioning is being refused service because my significant other doesn't have the right equipment or the right skin color. But what I hate most is all of these action having the only support being what someone interpreted from the bible.

Wasn't it the same church that mother Teresa was a part of that had case after case of sexual abused children. Wasn't it this same church that moved instead of prosecuting these predators in the name of religion.

Religion does not have a lock on doing good dead's. In fact how much of a good dead or a selfless act is it. if the purpose is to get into heaven.

Lets take tidings, your parishioners pay in the name a Jesus so the leaders can fly in a private jets.

Lets look at how many of the biggest preachers who spoke out against the gay community. spoke out about how sinful it is. Turned out to be in same sex relations.

The bible says "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." yet you go to sleep on a church step to get out of the rain you will wake up in jail. I have been there done that.

The Idea of having something you can believe in, has helped me immensely. I live by the serenity prayer. Yet I detest the ideology of religion that purports to cast judgment on others. Judgement that got a friend of of mine kicked and beat senseless while being told god doesn't like fags.

You comment on how I should volunteer instead of bashing Christianity. You fail to even See I am not down on Christianity, I am down on organized religion. I am down on a church that tells me sex out of wed lock I will burn in hell. While those making the proclamation diddle little kids.

I detest these massive monstrosities built, while people go hungry and or go to jail for seeking shelter in the shadow of the cross.

Why my passion for this episode. This episode basic story was to save his soul the strapped the preacher down and poked him with hot pokers. All behind some religious belief. Was I tied down and had hot pokers jabbed into me? No.

But being keep in a room and verbally abused. because of religious beliefs. It is hard to not see a difference.

I also think so.I get upset when the Vatican says that unbaptized children can live in heaven.
who are they to judge well.the Catholic Church in many countries, has concealed pedophile priests case.
in "Lewis" series there is a chapter in which a woman who had lost her daughter kills two people.these two are carrying out a study on beliefs.one was a teacher who is to go through a Seer-He charged to visits-who discovered the killer was really.what she said was that her daughter had done literally disappear-no.the told him that his daughter was fine there and then discovered.