(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: Please try not to ignore half of my post in future if you do want to continue this conversation. Otherwise I fear I must begin to agree with Henry’s and Dicapp’s assessment that you do not actually care to talk about canon. If we continue this, please find me quotes to show me what you are talking about. Thank you.
That's some twosome that you've decided to hitch your wagon to for guidance. You might seriously reconsider what you're typing out for everyone to read. After all, "duh" has done LSD in his younger years so you just don't know what you're going to get. Don't believe me? Ask him. He's bragged about it here. Not to mention some other unsavory things that no one really wanted to know in the first place. He also vowed to keep his word to refrain from bullying fellow posters and would be civil if I refrained from talking about his weapons thread. I kept my word. He did not. He couldn't even manage to hold out for all of 10 minutes. That and he's also unable to manage a mature conversation despite all of his bragging to the contrary.
As for canon, when did you become the "canon guru" to order that only canon can be discussed? The last time I read this thread, it included speculation and hypothesizing, even from you.
And here's something you completely missed. You'd do well to follow your own advice. I notice you ignore what you don't want to answer or clog your post with quotes and pictures, which I believe are simply an effort to avoid questions. Don't believe me? Read my previous post and the review the questions which *you* chose to ignore.
(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: I am referring to his part in their child’s life. And Adalind’s. I’m not sure why that is unclear to you, as the sentence I typed reads “But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?“
I'm not really sure what the "thing with Adalind" is, to tell you the truth. You don't clarify it, but instead choose to string some generic terms together. Nick himself never clarifies what it is he's having misgivings about. Is it becoming a father? Is it that he's not sure he's the father? Is it being in delivery room with Adalind? You don't know any more than anyone else.
Nick never seemed to voice or for that matter, experience any discomfort over Adalind becoming friends with Monroe and Rosalee. He had no problem with the two of them putting the baby swing(?) in his house. He certainly had no problem with Adalind working with them to create the potion. He had no issue with having Bud care for her while he did his grimm thing.
If, according to you, Nick was so uncomfortable about Adalind that he didn't want her to become a scoobie, why have the scoobies go to such lengths to make her feel comfortable? I know you'll disagree, but the scoobies follow Nick's lead. If he's comfortable with Adalind, they will be comfortable with her as well.
(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: and directly refers back to a quote that has Rosalee and Nick discuss how he should become part of Kelly’s and Adalind’s life. I do not understand where you get the impression that he would want her to be part of the Scoobies, unless he wanted her as part of his life because she’s the mother of his child.
Already answered above. Please make sure you keep that in mind.
(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: How would that even work separately? Do you think Adalind would’ve wanted to join the Scoobies if Nick had left her and Kelly in a lurch?
I don't get what this question has to do with the debate. If Nick had left Adalind in a lurch, would any of the events have transpired? No way.
(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: And why would he want her to join the Scoobies? How are those two *not* connected? She becomes part of the Scoobies when she and Kelly become part of Nick’s life. Before that point she's helping Nick out in an effort to protect Kelly and herself from Juliette.
They *were* a part of his life. It was Nick who made arrangements for her not only to be comfortable with Bud but as a means to protect her. It was Nick who took her into his home. It was Nick who moved her with him into the fome. If there was any question, it would have occurred way back in the precinct. Nick would have told Adalind to shove her potion where the sun didn't shine and left her to Juliette. And if there was such a disconnect between Nick and his baby, as you seem to think, Nick still could have had Adalind protected via police custody. She would be safe, and he wouldn't have to bother with her.
My question to you is, why wouldn't he want her to be part of his little group?
(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: Unless you think Elizabeth Lascelles is part of the Scoobies because she helped to make the potion to get Nick his Grimm back? I do not think that the Scooby decision could’ve possibly been made as early as Iron Hans. And if you weren’t conveniently ignoring the canon quotes I provided, we could now be looking at “Why the hell would I help you?” which Nick says to Adalind in Sean’s office, not long before the hallway incident. And you could explain to me how you see Nick go from that sentiment to “I choose Adalind as part of the Scoobies!” in a matter of what... two minutes? Five, maybe? (Note that we cannot count the way Nick feels when he first feels Kelly kick, because as we have discussed above, he hasn’t made up his mind about being part of Kelly’s life by the beginning of S5. The kicking bit only works as an incentive to have him protect Kelly.) -Please do consider that there are *several* questions in the above. They'd love to be answered.-
I have answered your questions in the above paragraphs. The rest of this post was really just clutter, designed to provoke rather than discuss. Please keep that in mind if you wish to have a serious discussion.
(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?
Quote:How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?
Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.
Quote: Are you talking about when Nick took Juliette's arm?
Quote:Do you honestly require me to say “Juliette’s arm” rather than “her arm” while we are talking about the scene in the hallway and Nick taking Juliette’s arm is the only time anyone takes anyone’s arm in that scene?
Yes I do. You want your questions answered, please allow me the same consideration without a lot of sarcastic banter.
And if you would have paid attention, the reason I asked that question was to get clarification from you. Nick didn't take Juliette's arm in an effort to establish a physical connection. He took her arm in an effort to restrain her from going after Adalind.
You were the one who questioned what good it would do for Nick to get Adalind out of there and then to talk to Juliette. In point of fact, it was you who said that "might trigger her (Juliette) to do something".
Now you're completely changing your argument to state Nick took her arm in an effort to establish a physical connection. If you believe that, then why wouldn't you think that Nick getting Adalind out of there and talking to Juliette might also be of benefit?
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: [If he had told Adalind to run... where to?
Wherever he felt she would be safe.
Everyone who's posting clearly feels this was a dangerous situation, even with Nick standing by. I haven't read one post from anyone saying the situation was calmed down simply because he was there. Even you. So why is it you feel she's so much safer at Nick's side?
Quote: Did you read what I said? Because I said that from what we see in canon it is the characters who appear to assume that that is the safest place for her, seeing as Nick doesn’t ask Adalind to leave and Adalind doesn’t leave on her own accord. You are the one who suggests that there IS a safer place elsewhere. I don’t know of one. Not because I consider the situation they’re in safe. But because I cannot think of a safer one. While you imply that the fact that Nick doesn’t send her elsewhere implies he doesn’t consider the situation dangerous. So please tell me where she would be safer? I asked a question and I don’t see an answer. If I missed it, please point it out to me.
Yes, for the thousandth time in order to sooth your vanity, I read what you wrote. That doesn't make it right.
And if you had read my posts, I said, Nick could have sent her anywhere. She could have gone to a conference room, to the jail, to Renard's office, they could have ushered her out the back door. Somewhere out of sight.
I keep reading how this innocent baby's life is at stake, how Juliette was going to rip out Adalind's throat, yada, yada, yada. Yet you seem to forget the very thing that Nick as a policeman, is supposed to adhere to, something he swore to. Nick has sworn to protect the innocent. Keeping Adalind next to his side where she can antagonize Juliette doesn't exactly show Nick at his finest, protecting an innocent unborn baby.
If you recall, it was Adalind who told Wu, "she (meaning Juliette) needs to leave". That isn't exactly reflective of a woman who's mortally terrified. Is it?
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".
Quote: So when Juliette stated in the spice shop (and I am paraphrasing here) that she liked who she was and Nick replied something to the effect of, "We don't", was that really a show of evidence that he was willing to try and understand Juliette as a hexenbiest?
Either you refused to read the quotes I provided. Or you’re deliberately not understanding what I am talking about. “So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down.” Is what happens in 4.14.
Read this again, please:
Nick: I’m not giving up. We’re gonna get through this.
Juliette: You can’t change it.
Nick: I’m not gonna let it destroy what we have.
Juliette: I see the way you are looking at me. It’s not the same. It’ll never be the same.
Nick: You learned to understand me, now I have to learn how to understand you.
Juliette: Is that forever?
Nick: I’m not going anywhere.
Juliette (woges): Is this what you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it?
Nick: Why are you doing this?
Juliette: If I’m the girl of your dreams, the least you can do is kiss me. Kiss me. You can’t even look at me. This is what’s forever.
(4.14)
You cannot seriously expect him to try and understand Hexenbiest Juliette by the time she’s smashed Rosalee into the shelves and Monroe to the ground. Because that’s what she does *before* she says that she likes who she is. If he was standing there holding her hand and brewing her tea by that point I’d wonder if someone removed his brain. And Ms. “I like who I am” in 4.20 said “I’m in hell, Nick” in 4.19. So excuse me, while I take her statements as to how she feels with a grain of salt. I almost hope she’s not serious. Because in between those two statements she’s torched the trailer, helped to plan to have her neighbors and Kelly murdered. And smashed the people who used to be her friends around. So that’s making her feel better about herself? And you’re asking Nick to understand that? (Again. Questions here.)
Um...yes I am. Juliette understood when he was in his zombie state. Juliette understood when the muse cried on him and he was obsessed. Juliette understood Nick needed her help to kidnap Diana from Adalind. Juliette understood when Nick wanted to get his grimm back.
Nick forgave Adalind who killed his aunt, and poisoned Juliette.
Nick has books on hexenbiests, has spoken with them, and has friends who can and have done comprehensive and exhaustive research on hexenbiests.
Nick forgave a hexenbiest for doing a lot worse than Juliette. So, yes, I expect him to understand that.
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote: Where in all of this did he unequivocably state that he would accept Juliette no matter what? And why when she accused him of choosing Adalind over her, didn't he prove to her that she was wrong?
Quote: Why should he promise to accept her *no matter what* (which isn’t what I said he does, in case you were wondering: “So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand...” does not include the words “no matter what” anywhere, and it refers to what's happening in 4.14.)? By the hallway scene we are talking about a character who’s about to become accessory to his mother’s and neighbors’ deaths, so any “no matter what” promises would be rather troubling. What we do get is him stating that he isn’t choosing Adalind over her:
Juliette: You’re choosing her over me.
Nick: That’s not what I’m doing.
Juliette: Then get out of my way.
But how should he *prove* that? By getting out of her way after she announced her intention to “rip the little bitch’s throat out”? And claimed that no child of Adalind’s is innocent? (If we continue this, please answer the question how he should prove it in your opinion. Stating that he should isn’t very helpful unless you also explain how. And it shouldn’t include letting her murder Kelly. A reasonable way, please.)
And anyway. WHY would he need to prove that he’s on her side? Again, ‘tis a question! Please do reply to this if you choose to reply. And take the following into account, too, please: She has *left* him in 4.14. She’s moved out in 4.16. She’s had sex with Renard in 4.17. And now she’s standing there telling him that he needs to choose her? She is his *ex* girlfriend. By her choice, not his. Why does she think she’s got a claim on who he can and can’t spend his time with? Even if Nick had decided to be in a relationship with Adalind for Kelly’s sake by this point in canon (which he didn’t, as we have discussed above, re 5.01), that would still not be Juliette’s business, because she is the one who has ended their relationship before any of this took place. She should be taking steps towards him. Not expecting him to take further steps towards her. He’s tried that in the past. And it didn’t work. And still we do get him reach out again when he thinks that they did find something to help her, as he promised he would continue to try for in 4.16:
Nick: Juliette, this is my fault. And if there was anything I could do to change it, I would.
Juliette: I know that.
Nick: I haven’t given up yet.
Juliette: Why not?
Nick: Because I love you.
(4.16)
I still cannot grasp if you think that the hallway scene and the spice shop scene happen in some vacuum where the scenes prior to it somehow haven’t happened. Did Juliette in the canon you watched not break up with Nick and sleep with Sean? If you reply to me again, please do so by providing quotes for what you are saying. I’m growing a little tired of trying to discuss canon if you aren’t doing the same. Otherwise I should find different topics to talk about. Please respect my wishes. Either source what you are saying when we talk about this some more. Or leave it at this. Thank you.
Another hypocritical wannabe moderator who believes all should follow her made up rules and be in complete agreement because you post some quotes and pictures here and there. I notice you have absolutely no regard to the bandwidth these long and drawn out posts take up. But then why would you? You don't have to pay for the site.
Who are you to declare what requirements should take place in a debate? You might as well caveat your posts with "Must agree with me".
I'll leave you with a couple of observations. I have found that you, as well as a some others here, rejoice in reading an opposite opinion. Not because it is an opinion and might be something interesting to discuss.
Instead, for you and these others, it's a forum for ridicule. You really have no respect for anyone here and certainly no desire to debate. No one can have an imagination or look at things from a different perspective around people such as yourself.
So.....you want to leave? Leave.
I have a feeling that is the last thing you want to do. Remember, you were the one who entered this discussion. It didn't come to you.
The best way to frustrate a cyberbully is to ignore him.