05-01-2018, 08:39 AM
Please try not to ignore half of my post in future if you do want to continue this conversation. Otherwise I fear I must begin to agree with Henry’s and Dicapp’s assessment that you do not actually care to talk about canon. If we continue this, please find me quotes to show me what you are talking about. Thank you.
I am referring to his part in their child’s life. And Adalind’s. I’m not sure why that is unclear to you, as the sentence I typed reads “But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?“ and directly refers back to a quote that has Rosalee and Nick discuss how he should become part of Kelly’s and Adalind’s life. I do not understand where you get the impression that he would want her to be part of the Scoobies, unless he wanted her as part of his life because she’s the mother of his child. How would that even work separately? Do you think Adalind would’ve wanted to join the Scoobies if Nick had left her and Kelly in a lurch? And why would he want her to join the Scoobies? How are those two *not* connected? She becomes part of the Scoobies when she and Kelly become part of Nick’s life. Before that point she's helping Nick out in an effort to protect Kelly and herself from Juliette. Unless you think Elizabeth Lascelles is part of the Scoobies because she helped to make the potion to get Nick his Grimm back? I do not think that the Scooby decision could’ve possibly been made as early as Iron Hans. And if you weren’t conveniently ignoring the canon quotes I provided, we could now be looking at “Why the hell would I help you?” which Nick says to Adalind in Sean’s office, not long before the hallway incident. And you could explain to me how you see Nick go from that sentiment to “I choose Adalind as part of the Scoobies!” in a matter of what... two minutes? Five, maybe? (Note that we cannot count the way Nick feels when he first feels Kelly kick, because as we have discussed above, he hasn’t made up his mind about being part of Kelly’s life by the beginning of S5. The kicking bit only works as an incentive to have him protect Kelly.) -Please do consider that there are *several* questions in the above. They'd love to be answered.-
Read this again, please:
Nick: I’m not giving up. We’re gonna get through this.
Juliette: You can’t change it.
Nick: I’m not gonna let it destroy what we have.
Juliette: I see the way you are looking at me. It’s not the same. It’ll never be the same.
Nick: You learned to understand me, now I have to learn how to understand you.
Juliette: Is that forever?
Nick: I’m not going anywhere.
Juliette (woges): Is this what you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it?
Nick: Why are you doing this?
Juliette: If I’m the girl of your dreams, the least you can do is kiss me. Kiss me. You can’t even look at me. This is what’s forever.
(4.14)
You cannot seriously expect him to try and understand Hexenbiest Juliette by the time she’s smashed Rosalee into the shelves and Monroe to the ground. Because that’s what she does *before* she says that she likes who she is. If he was standing there holding her hand and brewing her tea by that point I’d wonder if someone removed his brain. And Ms. “I like who I am” in 4.20 said “I’m in hell, Nick” in 4.19. So excuse me, while I take her statements as to how she feels with a grain of salt. I almost hope she’s not serious. Because in between those two statements she’s torched the trailer, helped to plan to have her neighbors and Kelly murdered. And smashed the people who used to be her friends around. So that’s making her feel better about herself? And you’re asking Nick to understand that? (Again. Questions here.)
Juliette: You’re choosing her over me.
Nick: That’s not what I’m doing.
Juliette: Then get out of my way.
But how should he *prove* that? By getting out of her way after she announced her intention to “rip the little bitch’s throat out”? And claimed that no child of Adalind’s is innocent? (If we continue this, please answer the question how he should prove it in your opinion. Stating that he should isn’t very helpful unless you also explain how. And it shouldn’t include letting her murder Kelly. A reasonable way, please.)
And anyway. WHY would he need to prove that he’s on her side? Again, ‘tis a question! Please do reply to this if you choose to reply. And take the following into account, too, please: She has *left* him in 4.14. She’s moved out in 4.16. She’s had sex with Renard in 4.17. And now she’s standing there telling him that he needs to choose her? She is his *ex* girlfriend. By her choice, not his. Why does she think she’s got a claim on who he can and can’t spend his time with? Even if Nick had decided to be in a relationship with Adalind for Kelly’s sake by this point in canon (which he didn’t, as we have discussed above, re 5.01), that would still not be Juliette’s business, because she is the one who has ended their relationship before any of this took place. She should be taking steps towards him. Not expecting him to take further steps towards her. He’s tried that in the past. And it didn’t work. And still we do get him reach out again when he thinks that they did find something to help her, as he promised he would continue to try for in 4.16:
Nick: Juliette, this is my fault. And if there was anything I could do to change it, I would.
Juliette: I know that.
Nick: I haven’t given up yet.
Juliette: Why not?
Nick: Because I love you.
(4.16)
I still cannot grasp if you think that the hallway scene and the spice shop scene happen in some vacuum where the scenes prior to it somehow haven’t happened. Did Juliette in the canon you watched not break up with Nick and sleep with Sean? If you reply to me again, please do so by providing quotes for what you are saying. I’m growing a little tired of trying to discuss canon if you aren’t doing the same. Otherwise I should find different topics to talk about. Please respect my wishes. Either source what you are saying when we talk about this some more. Or leave it at this. Thank you.
Thanks, you two! You are so sweet about this and I appreciate your encouragement. But it’s sadly starting to give me a bit of a headache. I do not feel my posts are taken seriously by the person I’m talking to. And yes, Diccap, I know that you told me so. Feel free to state that again if you wish to, I’m fairly laid back about that sort of thing. I do hope we’ll find other topics to discuss in detail. Because I really enjoy discussions, but I prefer them if I feel that there’s a point to them. So unless the tone of the replies I receive changes I will step away from this. Rosalee’s honor is still safe and sound after all. So there’s no need for me to go slay dragons for my lady. And there are so many other fun topics we could be talking about. Should probably open a few. Or go dig up past discussions that look interesting. Do have fun here, though. I hope you guys are... because if you aren’t, I’d recommend that we all leave and find something else to talk about. Hobbies are meant to be fun after all.
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well now, let's go back here. I asked a question and I don't see an answer. If I missed it, please point it out to me.
What thing about Adalind are you referring to?
I am referring to his part in their child’s life. And Adalind’s. I’m not sure why that is unclear to you, as the sentence I typed reads “But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?“ and directly refers back to a quote that has Rosalee and Nick discuss how he should become part of Kelly’s and Adalind’s life. I do not understand where you get the impression that he would want her to be part of the Scoobies, unless he wanted her as part of his life because she’s the mother of his child. How would that even work separately? Do you think Adalind would’ve wanted to join the Scoobies if Nick had left her and Kelly in a lurch? And why would he want her to join the Scoobies? How are those two *not* connected? She becomes part of the Scoobies when she and Kelly become part of Nick’s life. Before that point she's helping Nick out in an effort to protect Kelly and herself from Juliette. Unless you think Elizabeth Lascelles is part of the Scoobies because she helped to make the potion to get Nick his Grimm back? I do not think that the Scooby decision could’ve possibly been made as early as Iron Hans. And if you weren’t conveniently ignoring the canon quotes I provided, we could now be looking at “Why the hell would I help you?” which Nick says to Adalind in Sean’s office, not long before the hallway incident. And you could explain to me how you see Nick go from that sentiment to “I choose Adalind as part of the Scoobies!” in a matter of what... two minutes? Five, maybe? (Note that we cannot count the way Nick feels when he first feels Kelly kick, because as we have discussed above, he hasn’t made up his mind about being part of Kelly’s life by the beginning of S5. The kicking bit only works as an incentive to have him protect Kelly.) -Please do consider that there are *several* questions in the above. They'd love to be answered.-
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:Do you honestly require me to say “Juliette’s arm” rather than “her arm” while we are talking about the scene in the hallway and Nick taking Juliette’s arm is the only time anyone takes anyone’s arm in that scene?(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?
How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?
Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.
Are you talking about when Nick took Juliette's arm?
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:Did you read what I said? Because I said that from what we see in canon it is the characters who appear to assume that that is the safest place for her, seeing as Nick doesn’t ask Adalind to leave and Adalind doesn’t leave on her own accord. You are the one who suggests that there IS a safer place elsewhere. I don’t know of one. Not because I consider the situation they’re in safe. But because I cannot think of a safer one. While you imply that the fact that Nick doesn’t send her elsewhere implies he doesn’t consider the situation dangerous. So please tell me where she would be safer? I asked a question and I don’t see an answer. If I missed it, please point it out to me.(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: [If he had told Adalind to run... where to?
Wherever he felt she would be safe.
Everyone who's posting clearly feels this was a dangerous situation, even with Nick standing by. I haven't read one post from anyone saying the situation was calmed down simply because he was there. Even you. So why is it you feel she's so much safer at Nick's side?
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:Either you refused to read the quotes I provided. Or you’re deliberately not understanding what I am talking about. “So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down.” Is what happens in 4.14.(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".
So when Juliette stated in the spice shop (and I am paraphrasing here) that she liked who she was and Nick replied something to the effect of, "We don't", was that really a show of evidence that he was willing to try and understand Juliette as a hexenbiest?
Read this again, please:
Nick: I’m not giving up. We’re gonna get through this.
Juliette: You can’t change it.
Nick: I’m not gonna let it destroy what we have.
Juliette: I see the way you are looking at me. It’s not the same. It’ll never be the same.
Nick: You learned to understand me, now I have to learn how to understand you.
Juliette: Is that forever?
Nick: I’m not going anywhere.
Juliette (woges): Is this what you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it?
Nick: Why are you doing this?
Juliette: If I’m the girl of your dreams, the least you can do is kiss me. Kiss me. You can’t even look at me. This is what’s forever.
(4.14)
You cannot seriously expect him to try and understand Hexenbiest Juliette by the time she’s smashed Rosalee into the shelves and Monroe to the ground. Because that’s what she does *before* she says that she likes who she is. If he was standing there holding her hand and brewing her tea by that point I’d wonder if someone removed his brain. And Ms. “I like who I am” in 4.20 said “I’m in hell, Nick” in 4.19. So excuse me, while I take her statements as to how she feels with a grain of salt. I almost hope she’s not serious. Because in between those two statements she’s torched the trailer, helped to plan to have her neighbors and Kelly murdered. And smashed the people who used to be her friends around. So that’s making her feel better about herself? And you’re asking Nick to understand that? (Again. Questions here.)
(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote: Where in all of this did he unequivocably state that he would accept Juliette no matter what? And why when she accused him of choosing Adalind over her, didn't he prove to her that she was wrong?Why should he promise to accept her *no matter what* (which isn’t what I said he does, in case you were wondering: “So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand...” does not include the words “no matter what” anywhere, and it refers to what's happening in 4.14.)? By the hallway scene we are talking about a character who’s about to become accessory to his mother’s and neighbors’ deaths, so any “no matter what” promises would be rather troubling. What we do get is him stating that he isn’t choosing Adalind over her:
Juliette: You’re choosing her over me.
Nick: That’s not what I’m doing.
Juliette: Then get out of my way.
But how should he *prove* that? By getting out of her way after she announced her intention to “rip the little bitch’s throat out”? And claimed that no child of Adalind’s is innocent? (If we continue this, please answer the question how he should prove it in your opinion. Stating that he should isn’t very helpful unless you also explain how. And it shouldn’t include letting her murder Kelly. A reasonable way, please.)
And anyway. WHY would he need to prove that he’s on her side? Again, ‘tis a question! Please do reply to this if you choose to reply. And take the following into account, too, please: She has *left* him in 4.14. She’s moved out in 4.16. She’s had sex with Renard in 4.17. And now she’s standing there telling him that he needs to choose her? She is his *ex* girlfriend. By her choice, not his. Why does she think she’s got a claim on who he can and can’t spend his time with? Even if Nick had decided to be in a relationship with Adalind for Kelly’s sake by this point in canon (which he didn’t, as we have discussed above, re 5.01), that would still not be Juliette’s business, because she is the one who has ended their relationship before any of this took place. She should be taking steps towards him. Not expecting him to take further steps towards her. He’s tried that in the past. And it didn’t work. And still we do get him reach out again when he thinks that they did find something to help her, as he promised he would continue to try for in 4.16:
Nick: Juliette, this is my fault. And if there was anything I could do to change it, I would.
Juliette: I know that.
Nick: I haven’t given up yet.
Juliette: Why not?
Nick: Because I love you.
(4.16)
I still cannot grasp if you think that the hallway scene and the spice shop scene happen in some vacuum where the scenes prior to it somehow haven’t happened. Did Juliette in the canon you watched not break up with Nick and sleep with Sean? If you reply to me again, please do so by providing quotes for what you are saying. I’m growing a little tired of trying to discuss canon if you aren’t doing the same. Otherwise I should find different topics to talk about. Please respect my wishes. Either source what you are saying when we talk about this some more. Or leave it at this. Thank you.
(05-01-2018, 06:05 AM)dicappatore Wrote:(05-01-2018, 05:47 AM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Zansy,
Your post was one of the best ever presented on this Forum. Kudos!
N G
I second those Kudos also. I wonder if (cough) "SOME" might disagree.
Thanks, you two! You are so sweet about this and I appreciate your encouragement. But it’s sadly starting to give me a bit of a headache. I do not feel my posts are taken seriously by the person I’m talking to. And yes, Diccap, I know that you told me so. Feel free to state that again if you wish to, I’m fairly laid back about that sort of thing. I do hope we’ll find other topics to discuss in detail. Because I really enjoy discussions, but I prefer them if I feel that there’s a point to them. So unless the tone of the replies I receive changes I will step away from this. Rosalee’s honor is still safe and sound after all. So there’s no need for me to go slay dragons for my lady. And there are so many other fun topics we could be talking about. Should probably open a few. Or go dig up past discussions that look interesting. Do have fun here, though. I hope you guys are... because if you aren’t, I’d recommend that we all leave and find something else to talk about. Hobbies are meant to be fun after all.