(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: You don't agree Juliette's actions were worse than Adelind?! She's responsible for Kelly's head getting cut off? Trying to kill Monroe?
Nope and I'll tell you why. Because all of this, every bit of it stemmed from one person: Adalind.
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: No matter what happens, no matter how sorry she is, I cannot imagine a way in which Nick can ever get over the things that Juliette said or did as a hexenbeist. Bringing the Royals to come for Kelly/Diana was a bridge too far.
Really? Just how much suffering is he doing while he's looking at Adalind's bra in the mirror?
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: It's not Juliette's fault what happened to her. But the show also showed that she made choices - made choices to accept the darker impulses, to reject Nick's help constantly, to feel rage instead of anything else.
Actually, you are incorrect. In the beginning, Juliette consciously fought off the hexenbiest impulses. She effectively hid them from Nick until it was no longer possible to do so.
No one can argue about what Juliette herself said to Nick....she felt the hexenbiest taking control of her.
I've heard this argument before, "Juliette made the choice to accept the darker impulses", or "Juliette freely embraced the hexenbiest".
At first, I agreed with this because it seems obvious. But, as GrimmsterAla pointed out, we don't really know enough about hexenbiests to make this assumption.
Now I'm beginning to wonder if the Juliette we see wasn't a pure hexenbiest, but instead what we're seeing is a conflict. In other words, she is at war with her hexenbiest and the power trips and anger are the proof of that conflict. The reason I say this stems from four hexenbiests we already know: Catherine, Henrietta, Elizabeth, and God forbid, Adalind. I'll also include Sean in on this.
All of these women and Sean harbor/harbored hexenbiest spirits. With the exception of Adalind, all were very calm individuals.
Henrietta told Nick to leave Juliette alone, to stay out of her way and let her find her own way. As you said, instead of listening to Henrietta he ended up constantly badgering Juliette. Not only that, he humiliated her.
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: Given all the hexenbeists that DID exhibit free will, it's hypocritical to say Juliette didn't have a choice. She had a choice to "go bad."
May I ask a favor? Could you please refrain from using inflammatory terms like hypocritical? I find your posts interesting and I enjoy our back and forths, but I do not like being called hypocritical, particularly in relation to imaginary characters.
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: But she chose to embrace that anger, and that's why they all had to turn against her in some way (meaning you don't see anyone openly grieving her other than Rosalee, who feels almost guilty for missing her).
I find this really very coldhearted on the part of the scoobies. They can't even find it in their hearts to mourn the person Juliette was before the spell. All they can think of is how she hurt them.
And this is something I find hypocritical on their part. They can take Adalind in, who's done despicable things to them. They can find it in their hearts to forgive her, but they can't forgive Juliette. They're an odd lot, I'll say that for them.
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: This scene tells you everything. She has every right to be angry, but she acts on it on her own choice. Nick hands her the potion and she has all the time in the world to think about what she's doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOr0cNfKTI
So you believe she had the right to be angry but not act upon her anger? How so?
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: They started the "Adelind is good arc" before the hexenbeist was suppressed to show it WAS possible. Go watch the scenes when she's with Meisner escaping the Royals.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I have yet to see the Adadlind good arc. See, this woman didn't come to Nick when she found out she was pregnant. She was hanging with the royals until they dumped her for Juliette.
It was only when she had no where to go that she begged Nick to protect her. What a phony.
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: So funny, the people who act like Juliette did nothing wrong, it was all the spirit of the hexenbeist, still blame Adelind for all her choices. It doesn't work both ways.
If you mean me, just say it. I would like to respectfully ask that you quote what I said as well. I can't really address these generic statements.
(11-23-2015, 02:48 PM)grimmfan14 Wrote: But that scene also has Nick saying that he doesn't like who she is, ie a hexenbeist. And I think a lot of the drama this year will come from him dealing with that again (when Adelind gets her powers back) and having to make a different choice. And it might be easier for him because he's known her as a hexenbeist, and know she's capable of wanting otherwise.
It should be obvious to you by now grimmfan14 that I do not like Nick. I found his conduct during this trying time for Juliette more appalling that usual.
It will be interesting to see how he takes Adalind as a hexenbiest.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
I did not mean everyone, I meant some people, but even saying that is egotistical and simplistic on my part. I apologize.
I know you didn't mean everyone. And there's no need to apologize, GrimmsterALA.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
A bad thing? I don't know whether being a hexenbiest turns you bad or into something you are not, which is what I meant, and wish it could be clarified by the show, but like you I doubt it will be.
This is actually a very good point, one I never thought of. We really don't know what being a hexenbiest does to a person.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
I didn't mean to excuse Adalind, yes she did it for herself, maybe she was just a pawn but she did it regardless. As a Adalind shipper, and a fan of Grimm, I wholeheartedly believe Adalind is responsible for her actions. So is everyone else. To say that just because I ship Adalind and Nick that means I do not see how messed up the situation or their history is, is wrong. I am not blind to it. I remember it and see it as it plays out subtly between them. But I am also willing to embrace it and try to move forward, as are they.
Also a good for you here. You have more fortitude with regard to those two than I do.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
As for Juliette I guess we will just have to disagree there. I think that because she was one of them, the betrayal truly hurt them more than anything Adalind did. But you are right, Juliette did not ask for what happened to her, and she maybe she wasn't fully responsible, but this is where the question of the nature of hexenbiest comes into play and messes with us all. Was it the hexenbiest or Juliette? Was Juliette unable to resist or fight the power and lost control? Or did she embrace it? Were her worst traits, from deep within her, coming to the surface
Your statement about the hexenbiest not being defined (paraphrasing here) has got me to thinking. I said this to grimmfan14 earlier, but I'll repeat it here. Maybe what we're seeing is Juliette's attempt to keep the hexenbiest at bay rather than accepting it. Perhaps pointing a gun at Monroe, dropping the statue near Adalind, and throwing Nick around are physical manifestations of her anger that have nothing to do with embracing the hexenbiest. Maybe it's Juliette who's using the hexenbiest.
That said, I'm not so sure the hexenbiest spirit equates to an evil spirit, GrimmsterAla. Henrietta seemed to view Juliette as something special, not an evil monster. She also seemed to recognize that the road to this specialness would be a rocky one, but once Juliette got there, it would be a positive thing for her and Nick. If Nick left her alone to get used to this new identity.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
Hmm... I do like Adalind and always have. But I did truly like Juliette. I am not a one sided shipper. I honestly just watch the show and whats in front of me. I enjoy all of the characters and the stories. I do not nit-pick just things I like. But yes, you are right, I will still see it my way. Guess that's what makes us all different. Wink
You're not alone there. I see it my way too. We're not only different, but having fun discussing it.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
For me, the side storyline of Nick's personal life is really important. I see it as him having something to hold on to, a reason to fight. Sure he could fight just because he's a Grimm, or a cop or just a good human being. But to see deeper into his character, for him to have connections, bonds, to ground him and push him to fight and win, that's just another layer of the story. It also gives him something he could loose. And when you have something to fight for and something you can lose, I believe you fight harder, longer and more fiercely.
I'm not against him fighting for his son. I think that's great. It's my hope that he realizes that he can no longer be the corrupt cop now that he has someone who depends on him. I personally would like to see Adalind move into her own digs though, along with having a non romantic relationship with her so that he can visit his son. He owes her nothing in my opinion.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
Yes, but after Adalind took it and it worked. Yes it was made by their, and Juliette's nemesis, and I see why Juliette should have been reluctant and maybe the Scoobies were too trusting. But it worked on Adalind. So it would have worked for Juliette. She herself came to the shop for help and this was the only thing they had available. Was it dangerous for her? Sure. But in the end, so was being a hexenbiest and going after Nick.
But thank you for making me re-think that! Big Grin I did not realize how quickly Nick and the Scoobies agreed to it. I guess I just saw it at grasping at the last and only straw.
You're welcome!
But you pointed out something important a few posts ago when you said the two hexenbiests are not alike. That is very true. What might have been harmless to Adalind may have been deadly to Juliette. Juliette questioned the scoobies about the potion and found out Adalind made it. I think was she probably was remembering at that point was when Adalind came to her house and tried to kill her.
Adalind failed there, but could she succeed with the unwitting help of the scoobies? This thought could have crossed Juliette's mind.
As a side note, this scene has always been a troubling one to me for a variety of reasons. First, the fact that Nick, Hank, and Monroe were there. Nick and Hank were armed. Juliette gets blamed for turning the gun on Monroe, but why were Nick and Hank there in the first place? Why did Monroe need to be there? This argument has come up before and I've always wondered why Hank drew his gun on her? They all get weirded out by her power but maybe if the men hadn't come at all, things may have worked out differently. Juliette certainly couldn't have felt comfortable with armed men in the room.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
Maybe my perspective is not all from Juliette. She might not have been wrong to refuse it, but then again why did she? Was it because it might kill her or was it because it would take away her powers? "When are you all going to learn that i LIKE WHO I AM?" (She did NOT want to be "fixed." And as soon as I heard that word, I knew it would not go well!) The potion worked on one hexenbiest, which Juliette figured out, so it would work for her. But now that Adalind has no powers, Juliette didn't feel the need to kill her anymore. And instead of trying to end being a hexenbiest or deal with it, she attacks the Scoobies. She was pushed too far: the baby, becoming a wesen, and losing everything. But that's where the choice comes into play. She choose to embrace being a hexenbiest and siding with the Royals instead of help from the Scoobies or even just being on her own. She did what she thought was right for her, and I applaud that, but it was still a choice.
I have to say when Rosalee came to visit her in jail, I didn't for a moment believe that Juliette 'liked' what she had become. She was lying to herself as well as Rosalee. Nick was repulsed by her, and Monroe and Rosalee completely wigged at her appearance, what was left for her?
So these three people who I look at as being closest to her, told her in so many ways that they did not approve of her. Not one, not one of them ever bothered to ask her how she felt, what could they do to help, or even just be with her.
They took it upon themselves that she needed to be 'cured'. Truth be told, maybe if they'd have helped her, not tried to fix her, they would have had a powerful ally on their side instead of a dead hexenbiest.
I'm not justifying Juliette's actions, she was wrong. But she was pushed over the edge by the people she loved best.
Quote:GrimmsterAla wrote:
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WELL THOUGHT OUT AND WRITTEN REPLIES! To be able to discuss and re-think my favorite show and its characters with other fans, even though we might disagree on things, is truly wonderful.
Thank you back! It's just as beneficial to me to read posts. I often gain a new perspective with the different ideas presented here.
The best way to frustrate a cyberbully is to ignore him.