what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show?

[FaceInTheCrowd]

Guilt seems to be a running theme for the Kessler family Grimms. I can't help wondering if it's endemic to being a Grimm in the modern world.

[eric]

Since I don't have the script handy I went to the DVD and got closed captioning to check what was being said. In "Where the Wild Things Are", Nick and Eve leave the human village and go looking for Z. Once at the Circle Nick says that Eve is the way she is now(super hex) is because of him.
Eve - So you want to go back to the way things were? (before she was a hex)
Nick - Yes I do.
Eve - I don't. Juliette did a lot of bad things...but I am no Juliette anymore, she's gone. She may be a part of me but I'm not going back. I know you are here because you loved me once and feel responsible for what happened, but you can't change that and I can't change that.
Nick - Do you really think we are all better off?
Eve - I have a strength and purpose I never had before and you do also. I know you are here because you loved me once and feel responsible. You and I can't change it. Would you really want to go back just to be happy. Happy doesn't interest me anymore, it just gets in the way.
Big hug, Mr Z shows up.

So yes I do believe Eve had recovered, she was no longer a wild being with no control. She has been rebuilt into a new person, and accepts she can't return. Nick wanted to try to return to the past, but Eve knew that was no longer possible. Nick wanted a fairly tale ending, Eve accepted the new reality.

eric, we have the script available. I've already given you the link in my last post. Nick never says he wants back to the way things were. These quotes are simply wrong!
These are the correct ones:

Nick: None of this would have ever happened to you if you hadn't met me.
Eve: So you think I wanna change that?
Nick: Yes, I do.
Eve: Well, I don't.

Nick thinks Eve would have been better of if Juliette never met him, he doesn’t say he wants to go back himself. Think about it, if he did, he would simply want to give up his son. After fighting to get Adalind and his son back in season 5, you think Nick would give it all up for the women who did more harm to him than all of his enemies together?

Thanks for telling me about the link. Guess I missed it - things crazy here. I missed Nick's opening line, but I don't think it changes the conversation. Nick would like to go back to their before life, Eve doesn't. A whole new world has opened for her - and him - and she likes it. She is no longer the damsel in distress whose whole life depends on her shining knight to save her, she can kill any dragons out there. She admits the wrongs she has done, but knows she can't change any of that. Since Nick and Adeline were still together 20 years later, I guess Nick has moved on as well.

[brandon]

I did not consider her as the damsel in danger even though she was in a coma.
juliette proved to be a strong woman, she insisted to Nick to learn to use a gun.

[N_grimm]

Thanks for telling me about the link. Guess I missed it - things crazy here. I missed Nick's opening line, but I don't think it changes the conversation. Nick would like to go back to their before life, Eve doesn't. A whole new world has opened for her - and him - and she likes it. She is no longer the damsel in distress whose whole life depends on her shining knight to save her, she can kill any dragons out there. She admits the wrongs she has done, but knows she can't change any of that. Since Nick and Adeline were still together 20 years later, I guess Nick has moved on as well.

eric, I can’t even understand how you can think Nick wants Juliette/Eve back. You have sound opinions on some issues, but here I strongly disagree.

Juliette turning evil, getting killed and then come back as Eve, must have been a mental strain on Nick. They needed to have that conversation. But Nick doesn’t say ANYTING about wanting his old life back. When Eve says “And if you could, would you really want to go back to the way things were, just to be happy?”, Nick doesn’t respond. When he lost his Grimm powers, that was a big blow to him. When he lost Adalind and Kelly, he was fighting to get them back. To claim he would give it all up, including his son, to be with a woman who tried to kill him and his son, and then helped having his mother beheaded, is inconsistent with the storyline. It’s also an insult to Nick’s character (if it’s possible to insult fiction people). Eve reminds Nick of old Juliette. She's no longer evil. Nick has forgiven her, but he can't forget what she did.

Nick felt responsible for Juliette turning into a hex, but he didn’t want to go back. I do not think Nick lied when he told Adalind in s5e07: “Juliette being back does not change the way I feel about Kelly or you”. This issue has also been addressed by Jim Kouf who described Nick's relationship with Eve as a "deep friendship," and said Nick’s "love has gone where his family is, which is with his son Kelly and Adalind”.

I also disagree that Eve/Juliette admits the mistakes she has done. Instead she pretends that someone else did it, by keep saying “I’m not Juliette anymore”. Her last words after Z made her stab herself was: "no regrets”. If Juliette had no control after the hex-nerve kicked in, then she was another person. But Adalind's story tells us that a Hexenbiest can make her own choices. The same applies to Eve version 2.0.

[dicappatore]

To all of you viewers who seem to complain about the show's creative team progressed though the various arcs, with all your critiques and hows they screwed the series up. Some of you have re-watched the show over and over again, still end up seeing and hearing what did not took place, yet keep insisting it did..

May I recommend reading this article titled "Why we binge-watch stuff we hate". @: https://mashable.com/article/hate-binge-watch/

Maybe its just a rare novelty I have but all my media access devices have an on and off button, besides changing channel button. Something you should consider in acquiring. In addition, some needed therapy might be an added benefit.

[irukandji]

I did not consider her as the damsel in danger even though she was in a coma.
juliette proved to be a strong woman, she insisted to Nick to learn to use a gun.

Maybe a better way to put it is that she was at a disadvantage?

[brandon]

What a disadvantage?

[irukandji]

She was 100% human in a grimm/wesen world. Wouldn't you consider that a disadvantage?

[eric]

Thanks for telling me about the link. Guess I missed it - things crazy here. I missed Nick's opening line, but I don't think it changes the conversation. Nick would like to go back to their before life, Eve doesn't. A whole new world has opened for her - and him - and she likes it. She is no longer the damsel in distress whose whole life depends on her shining knight to save her, she can kill any dragons out there. She admits the wrongs she has done, but knows she can't change any of that. Since Nick and Adeline were still together 20 years later, I guess Nick has moved on as well.

eric, I can’t even understand how you can think Nick wants Juliette/Eve back. You have sound opinions on some issues, but here I strongly disagree.

Juliette turning evil, getting killed and then come back as Eve, must have been a mental strain on Nick. They needed to have that conversation. But Nick doesn’t say ANYTING about wanting his old life back. When Eve says “And if you could, would you really want to go back to the way things were, just to be happy?”, Nick doesn’t respond. When he lost his Grimm powers, that was a big blow to him. When he lost Adalind and Kelly, he was fighting to get them back. To claim he would give it all up, including his son, to be with a woman who tried to kill him and his son, and then helped having his mother beheaded, is inconsistent with the storyline. It’s also an insult to Nick’s character (if it’s possible to insult fiction people). Eve reminds Nick of old Juliette. She's no longer evil. Nick has forgiven her, but he can't forget what she did.

Nick felt responsible for Juliette turning into a hex, but he didn’t want to go back. I do not think Nick lied when he told Adalind in s5e07: “Juliette being back does not change the way I feel about Kelly or you”. This issue has also been addressed by Jim Kouf who described Nick's relationship with Eve as a "deep friendship," and said Nick’s "love has gone where his family is, which is with his son Kelly and Adalind”.

I also disagree that Eve/Juliette admits the mistakes she has done. Instead she pretends that someone else did it, by keep saying “I’m not Juliette anymore”. Her last words after Z made her stab herself was: "no regrets”. If Juliette had no control after the hex-nerve kicked in, then she was another person. But Adalind's story tells us that a Hexenbiest can make her own choices. The same applies to Eve version 2.0.

In the final fight of season 4, Nick had a chance to end Juliette's life. I think most people watching the show would have viewed that as justified homicide. Instead he stops. When Truble shoots Juliette, did he kick the body and spit on it and thank Truble? Once again, most would have been okay with that, all things considered-- his mom's body wasn't even cold yet. No, he held her in his arms and cried like someone who had lost their love. You can love a person and hate what they do to you-- country and western music is full of that. When I see the scene right before Z shows up, I have the feeling Nick would have taken her back if she had wanted to go back. He didn't say so, but his eyes seem to say please come back like we were. Adeline did a lot of bad things, I may be wrong but did she ever say sorry to Hank for attempted murder, Wu for making him eat a carpet, Juliette's memory loss, the de-Grimming of Nick ? If so I missed it. Adeline had a life time learning to control her hex, Juliette had what--one, two weeks?

[FaceInTheCrowd]

Adalind's apology ended up as a deleted scene in episode 510.