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+--- Thread: Meisner's ghost (/Thread-Meisner-s-ghost)
RE: Meisner's ghost - dicappatore - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 04:41 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: The Nazi association probably comes from a line by Eve about a world run by wesen. She says Hitler tried it once and BC was trying it again. Not a statement that BC were Nazis, just that they shared the same goals.Actually the Nazi connection to Wesen World Domination came on way before in an earlier season than Season of Eve. S5 and way before Juliette turned into Eve. Nick found original Nazi film footage in his trailer and saw Hitler voge. The Eve comment was basically a "Johnny come lately" old news.
(12-29-2019, 04:41 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Meisner was one of two operatives Renard had in Europe. He was the "outside man" to Sebastien's "inside man." Meisner was also a member of the resistance. His main motivation seemed to be doing things to undermine the royals. The only time Meisner ever acted as a sort of guardian to Renard was when he was escorting him to a meeting with the resistance, and it wasn't really clear whether he was doing that more for Renard or for the resistance.I guess you missed the episode when Meisner escorted Sean to a safe house in Austria when they were attacked and they had to escape through a sewer and how Meisner put his life on the line protecting Sean in the firefight that ensued before they escaped..
(12-29-2019, 04:41 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: My take on what Meisner was is ghost, because G&K were pretty obvious about things that were intended to be imaginary or illusory (subtlety never seemed to be part of their toolkit).To me, it looked as if Meisner was a manifestation on Sean's guilt in a lame attempt by the creative team to make the Sean Renard character to be more liked than just the women viewers wanting to see him shirtless.
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 05:40 PM)dicappatore Wrote: I guess you missed the episode when Meisner escorted Sean to a safe house in Austria when they were attacked and they had to escape through a sewer and how Meisner put his life on the line protecting Sean in the firefight that ensued before they escaped..
That was the episode where Meisner was taking Sean to meet the resistance leaders.
RE: Meisner's ghost - dicappatore - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 02:49 PM)irukandji Wrote:Hello, McFly, knock, knock. Your absurdity precedes you. Again, if you weren't on your meds when you were watching this show, your opinions wold be more based on facts. Yea BC didn't use a Swastika but they did use 4 black lines (Black Claw) sometimes it was red, in its place.Quote: Sean Renard joined a terrorist organization that planned to fulfill Hitler's dream of ethnic cleansing.
And you're basing this on what? I don't recall any of them using the Swastika as their symbol of freedom. Nor do I recall any pictures of Hitler plastered all over or them indicating they were following his doctrines.
(12-29-2019, 02:49 PM)irukandji Wrote:Well lets see how much you got wrong.Quote: Meisner, who always fought on the right side, was killed by his former friend as he tried to protect humanity. This was also the man who helped Renard’s daughter into the world. And here you are implying that Meisner was tasked with helping Renard and redeeming himself.
First of all, let's get the hierarchy straight here. Meisner was Renard's bodyguard. If there was any indication these two men had a relationship other than that, again I would like to see the facts.
So, according to you, Meisner was fighting on the right side? Based again, on what?
Yea he was his bodyguard.
You forgot the part when he killed one of the royal prince, Eric. I guess in your world, the royals were the good guys and Renard with the Resistance were the bad guys.
Then you forget what Meisner did for Adalind carrying Sean's unborn daughter. It sure looked like to me, he protected them and endangered himself from Verat. I guess in your medicated world, Verat were also the good guys.
Then you forget, he joined HW to protect unappreciative humans such as yourself. I guess, in this situation, based on your opinion, he was protecting bad humans from the good Wesen
(12-29-2019, 02:49 PM)irukandji Wrote:Quote:What you write about ghosts is, to put it mildly, thin. Christmas is coming to an end, and most people have seen at least one version of Charles Dickens classic tale A Christmas Carol. It's about ghosts that make Ebenezer Scrooge change his ways.
Now you want to discuss A Christmas Carol. Okay, who was the deceased man/woman who became the Ghost of Christmas past? What man died and became the Ghost of Christmas present? Everyone figures the Ghost of Christmas yet to come is none other than the spirit of Death. Yet you would have us thinking that these were actually men who died and became these ghosts/spirits.
The only actual "ghost" in A Christmas Carol is Marley.
This is scary due to partially agreeing with you. Without getting in too deeply about A Christmas Carol, wasn't it obvious that there is no such thing as past, present, and future ghosts? How can there be ghosts of 3 things, instead of people that aren't dead, such as past, present and future which are not people if they could die.
It is obvious to me, all 3 manifestations were part of his guilt? Ebenezer Scrooge was a logical minded man. He might have been greedy but deep inside, he knew he was wrong. His own logical subconscience used those spirits as a manifestation of his wrong doings while he was asleep. We call that dreaming, better yet, night mares.
In comparison to Sean's case, the only differences were, his guilt was manifested while he was awake instead of dreaming.
(12-29-2019, 06:20 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(12-29-2019, 05:40 PM)dicappatore Wrote: I guess you missed the episode when Meisner escorted Sean to a safe house in Austria when they were attacked and they had to escape through a sewer and how Meisner put his life on the line protecting Sean in the firefight that ensued before they escaped..
That was the episode where Meisner was taking Sean to meet the resistance leaders.
Exactly and to me, it sure look as if he was doing a bit more than escorting. And as I mentioned above, lest not forget the assassination of a Royal he did for Sean and what he did for his daughter.
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-29-2019
Meisner's motivation pre-HW was a bit sketchy, because while he did things personally for Renard, everything he did for Renard was also against the royals, who he was hoping to someday pay back for killing his girlfriend. So was Meisner loyal to Renard, or was he helping him because it was a way to act against the royals? We really don't know, but we do know that once he joined HW and they were no longer working together against the royals their relationship went downhill pretty fast.
And WRT Izzy's questions, I wonder if perhaps Mesiner was less interested in "saving Renard's soul" than in getting him to switch sides and finish the job of ending BC?
RE: Meisner's ghost - izzy - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 01:02 PM)irukandji Wrote:(12-26-2019, 12:33 PM)izzy Wrote: Things that puzzled me is, if Meisner only lived is Sean's head and a change (redemption) actually occurred and hence why Meisner went away you would have expected the redemption to clearly play out with a declaration as did most archs in the series.
I'm not so sure it was a redemption. It seems to me that Meisner helped Sean rather than redeemed him.
Usually in the story of ghosts, it's the ghost who needs the redemption. Is it possible that Meisner was sent and tasked with redeeming himself?
The entire Meinser ghost thing is a giant puzzle to me, it seemed like its real point lay on the cutting room floor somewhere. It was mildly amusing but given how wessen-of-the-week and rushed the last two episodes where it seems the screen time could have been used elsewhere. I just don't get it.
It does seem like Meisner played shrink to Sean more than anything. Although he did give Sean a warning as FaceInTheCrouwd pointed out.
(12-29-2019, 04:41 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: The Nazi association probably comes from a line by Eve about a world run by wesen. She says Hitler tried it once and BC was trying it again. Not a statement that BC were Nazis, just that they shared the same goals.
I have always wanted to ask, do you just have an incredibly good memory or a good set of notes? It is impressive (to me).
(12-29-2019, 07:05 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: And WRT Izzy's questions, I wonder if perhaps Mesiner was less interested in "saving Renard's soul" than in getting him to switch sides and finish the job of ending BC?
Interesting...
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 08:18 PM)izzy Wrote: I have always wanted to ask, do you just have an incredibly good memory or a good set of notes? It is impressive (to me).
Combination of things, really. I can remember that someone said something and when to within an episode or three, which makes it easier to find, the Grimm wiki has transcripts of most episodes and as a last resort there's the episodes themselves on video.
BTW, does anybody really believe that Sean "redeemed himself" when he took out the two BC who tried to kill him in the PPB garage? Seemed to me that until he finally joined forces with Nick and the scoobies to save his daughter from Z that he was just an embittered almost-loser who managed to survive the fall of BC and reach a negotiated settlement with Nick. I never saw anything I perceived as contrition or even an acknowledgement that he had done anything wrong.
RE: Meisner's ghost - izzy - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 09:04 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: BTW, does anybody really believe that Sean "redeemed himself" when he took out the two BC who tried to kill him in the PPB garage? Seemed to me that until he finally joined forces with Nick and the scoobies to save his daughter from Z that he was just an embittered almost-loser who managed to survive the fall of BC and reach a negotiated settlement with Nick. I never saw anything I perceived as contrition or even an acknowledgement that he had done anything wrong.
I agree. That is why I do not get the Meisner Ghost thing, as in what was the point. Sean never had a clear redemption. All that can be said, is when it came to his daughter he acted like a father in terms of protecting her.
With Julliette/Eve and Adalind they tried to redeem and wrap up the characters, with Renard, they attempted something, I just have no idea what it was they were trying to accomplish.
So they spent a lot of time on a subplot that seemed to have not point or purpose other than fill screen time, or perhaps employ an actor the writers liked?
Puzzling to me.
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-29-2019
That's why I saw it as Meisner's ghost trying to complete his own final mission by convincing Sean to get off "the wrong side" and finish off BC for him.
The original plan for S06 was for Sean to become the villain. The beginning of that arc, shot before they found out there would only be 13 episodes, was him trying to plant seeds of suspicion about Nick in Diana in E04. Everything after that was just made up on the fly, so could be they originally had something else in mind for Meisner's ghost.
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 08:18 PM)izzy Wrote: The entire Meinser ghost thing is a giant puzzle to me, it seemed like its real point lay on the cutting room floor somewhere. It was mildly amusing but given how wessen-of-the-week and rushed the last two episodes where it seems the screen time could have been used elsewhere. I just don't get it.
It does seem like Meisner played shrink to Sean more than anything. Although he did give Sean a warning as FaceInTheCrouwd pointed out.
Renard has been involved in so many different schemes and dealt with a variety of wesen and humans. He had to become a prince to rescue Juliette and was possessed by one of the most terrifying individuals of all time, Jack the Ripper.
It doesn't even seem remotely conceivable, much less believable that someone like Meisner's ghost could even begin to haunt Renard.
One thing of note I thought I would mention. There is a scene where Meisner tells Renard that Bonaparte says "hi".
Where exactly do you think Meisner and Bonaparte were that the two of them ended up together?
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-29-2019
Grimm's afterlife looked like a dark, swirling tunnel with a light at the end of it. That might have been their version of purgatory. Maybe Meisner just saw Bonaparte pass by on his way somewhere.
Or it could have just been something Meisner said to get a rise out of Sean. I have a hard time imagining him wanting to have much of a conversation with Bonaparte.