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+--- Thread: Meisner's ghost (/Thread-Meisner-s-ghost)
Meisner's ghost - izzy - 12-26-2019
So, I finally got around to watching the rest of the last season of Grimm after growing jaundice toward the writing and character development. I'll probably post some concluding series thoughts at some time.
So I am now a bit baffled about why they brought Meisner back as a ghost or hallucination. Given I binge watched the ending episodes over the Christmas season it is easy to see the ghost of Meisner as some redemptive spirt guide aka Charles Dickens and a Christmas Carol.
I know many of the forum members also had researched what the writers/creators of the show said as well as the cast, so my questions are:
++ Was Meisner an actual ghost, with a will of his own, who wanted to do what with Sean:
---- Guide him to redemption
---- Annoy the guy
---- Or what?
++ Was the Meisner ghost simply a manifestation of Sean’s mind, an inner struggle?
++ Was Meisner’s ghost manifested by Diana who wanted her daddy good? I mention that, as it seems they dropped a lot of last season on the editing floor.
++ Do ghosts actually exist in the Grimm universe?
++ What was the real purpose of the Meisner ghost? The creators seemed to really like to help the cast out, so was this a case of them wanting to help a buddy out and gave the actor some cash flow by putting him in a few episodes?
Things that puzzled me is, if Meisner only lived is Sean's head and a change (redemption) actually occurred and hence why Meisner went away you would have expected the redemption to clearly play out with a declaration as did most archs in the series. And on the other hand is Meisner's ghost existed as an entity why was it absent in the battle against Zerstörer? I mean you care enough to haunt a guy but not enough when the universe is at stake?
If you respond, please indicate if you comment(s) are you won conjecture, understanding or if you are relaying things that came from the writers/creators/cast.
Cheers,
Izzy
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-26-2019
Conjecture/conclusions...
Meisner alerted Sean to a waiting ambush and helped him take down his attackers, so whatever he was, he knew things that Sean didn't and could affect other people besides Sean.
Also, I would think that the appearance of Nick's dead mom and aunt, their participation in his final battle with Z and the fact that Diana could see them both speaks to the existence of ghosts in the Grimmiverse.
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 12-26-2019
Izzy! So glad to read your post once again on the forum! I don't frequent much these days, but just happened to tune in. This is a very interesting subject, one I will follow.
Just a thought from a different perspective.....
Spirits do exist within the Grimm realm, albeit they are handled rather poorly in my opinion. Sean was possessed by the spirit of Jack the Ripper. No one ever saw Meisner's ghost, and Diana never sensed a spirit, only her father calling out Meisner's name. Sean could have been possessed by another evil spirit, Meisner.
RE: Meisner's ghost - dicappatore - 12-27-2019
(12-26-2019, 12:33 PM)izzy Wrote: So, I finally got around to watching the rest of the last season of Grimm after growing jaundice toward the writing and character development. I'll probably post some concluding series thoughts at some time.
So I am now a bit baffled about why they brought Meisner back as a ghost or hallucination. Given I binge watched the ending episodes over the Christmas season it is easy to see the ghost of Meisner as some redemptive spirt guide aka Charles Dickens and a Christmas Carol.
I know many of the forum members also had researched what the writers/creators of the show said as well as the cast, so my questions are:
++ Was Meisner an actual ghost, with a will of his own, who wanted to do what with Sean:
---- Guide him to redemption
---- Annoy the guy
---- Or what?
++ Was the Meisner ghost simply a manifestation of Sean’s mind, an inner struggle?
++ Was Meisner’s ghost manifested by Diana who wanted her daddy good? I mention that, as it seems they dropped a lot of last season on the editing floor.
++ Do ghosts actually exist in the Grimm universe?
++ What was the real purpose of the Meisner ghost? The creators seemed to really like to help the cast out, so was this a case of them wanting to help a buddy out and gave the actor some cash flow by putting him in a few episodes?
Things that puzzled me is, if Meisner only lived is Sean's head and a change (redemption) actually occurred and hence why Meisner went away you would have expected the redemption to clearly play out with a declaration as did most archs in the series. And on the other hand is Meisner's ghost existed as an entity why was it absent in the battle against Zerstörer? I mean you care enough to haunt a guy but not enough when the universe is at stake?
If you respond, please indicate if you comment(s) are you won conjecture, understanding or if you are relaying things that came from the writers/creators/cast.
Cheers,
Izzy
Izzy, I'm from the old school of simplicity. My belief of that whole Meisner spirit/ghost was more of your mention of;
"++ Was the Meisner ghost simply a manifestation of Sean’s mind, an inner struggle?"
IMO, it was a manifestation of his guilty inner mind, even for Sean. Meisner never lifted a finger against Sean and went out of his way to protect Sean, Adalind his unborn & born child, after Diana was delivered into this world by Meisner himself. All that had to weigh some guilt, even on a self centered egotistical jerk, such as Sean.
The Meisner proficiency, you mentions about his ability of some foresight of what was to evolve, was more of Sean own intuition manifested through the Meisner projection. Remember, Sean was a half arsed Zouberbiest himself and as such, he would have additional foresight above a normal Kehrseite-Schlich-Kennen
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 12-29-2019
(12-26-2019, 12:33 PM)izzy Wrote: Things that puzzled me is, if Meisner only lived is Sean's head and a change (redemption) actually occurred and hence why Meisner went away you would have expected the redemption to clearly play out with a declaration as did most archs in the series.
I'm not so sure it was a redemption. It seems to me that Meisner helped Sean rather than redeemed him.
Usually in the story of ghosts, it's the ghost who needs the redemption. Is it possible that Meisner was sent and tasked with redeeming himself?
RE: Meisner's ghost - N_grimm - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 01:02 PM)irukandji Wrote:(12-26-2019, 12:33 PM)izzy Wrote: Things that puzzled me is, if Meisner only lived is Sean's head and a change (redemption) actually occurred and hence why Meisner went away you would have expected the redemption to clearly play out with a declaration as did most archs in the series.
I'm not so sure it was a redemption. It seems to me that Meisner helped Sean rather than redeemed him.
Usually in the story of ghosts, it's the ghost who needs the redemption. Is it possible that Meisner was sent and tasked with redeeming himself?
Sometimes you make statements that are just shocking. Sean Renard joined a terrorist organization that planned to fulfill Hitler's dream of ethnic cleansing. Meisner, who always fought on the right side, was killed by his former friend as he tried to protect humanity. This was also the man who helped Renard’s daughter into the world. And here you are implying that Meisner was tasked with helping Renard and redeeming himself.
What you write about ghosts is, to put it mildly, thin. Christmas is coming to an end, and most people have seen at least one version of Charles Dickens classic tale A Christmas Carol. It's about ghosts that make Ebenezer Scrooge change his ways.
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 12-29-2019
Quote: Sean Renard joined a terrorist organization that planned to fulfill Hitler's dream of ethnic cleansing.
And you're basing this on what? I don't recall any of them using the Swastika as their symbol of freedom. Nor do I recall any pictures of Hitler plastered all over or them indicating they were following his doctrines.
Quote: Meisner, who always fought on the right side, was killed by his former friend as he tried to protect humanity. This was also the man who helped Renard’s daughter into the world. And here you are implying that Meisner was tasked with helping Renard and redeeming himself.
First of all, let's get the hierarchy straight here. Meisner was Renard's bodyguard. If there was any indication these two men had a relationship other than that, again I would like to see the facts.
So, according to you, Meisner was fighting on the right side? Based again, on what?
Quote:What you write about ghosts is, to put it mildly, thin. Christmas is coming to an end, and most people have seen at least one version of Charles Dickens classic tale A Christmas Carol. It's about ghosts that make Ebenezer Scrooge change his ways.
Now you want to discuss A Christmas Carol. Okay, who was the deceased man/woman who became the Ghost of Christmas past? What man died and became the Ghost of Christmas present? Everyone figures the Ghost of Christmas yet to come is none other than the spirit of Death. Yet you would have us thinking that these were actually men who died and became these ghosts/spirits.
The only actual "ghost" in A Christmas Carol is Marley.
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 12-29-2019
The Nazi association probably comes from a line by Eve about a world run by wesen. She says Hitler tried it once and BC was trying it again. Not a statement that BC were Nazis, just that they shared the same goals.
Meisner was one of two operatives Renard had in Europe. He was the "outside man" to Sebastien's "inside man." Meisner was also a member of the resistance. His main motivation seemed to be doing things to undermine the royals. The only time Meisner ever acted as a sort of guardian to Renard was when he was escorting him to a meeting with the resistance, and it wasn't really clear whether he was doing that more for Renard or for the resistance.
My take on what Meisner was is ghost, because G&K were always pretty obvious about things that were intended to be imaginary or illusory (subtlety never seemed to be part of their toolkit).
RE: Meisner's ghost - N_grimm - 12-29-2019
(12-29-2019, 02:49 PM)irukandji Wrote: And you're basing this on what? I don't recall any of them using the Swastika as their symbol of freedom. Nor do I recall any pictures of Hitler plastered all over or them indicating they were following his doctrines.
Eve: “Hitler tried once, now Black Claw is trying again”.
Quote:First of all, let's get the hierarchy straight here. Meisner was Renard's bodyguard. If there was any indication these two men had a relationship other than that, again I would like to see the facts.
Truble: “I thought Meisner was Renard's friend. Why would he do this?”
And Renard to Meisner: “Look, we had some good times together and I really appreciate everything that you've done for all of us. For Diana, for Adalind, and me”.
Quote:So, according to you, Meisner was fighting on the right side? Based again, on what?
Based on the fact that killing humans and wesen that did not agree with BC is the “wrong side”. Based on the fact that the royals were villians that wanted to control the world and Meisner fought for the resistance.
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 12-29-2019
You do realize that this is a topic where Izzy asked for all opinions. Why are you trying to take over and make this your own personal thread?