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what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - Printable Version

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RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 05-25-2019

(05-25-2019, 10:53 AM)N_grimm Wrote: If you kill Nick, the show must be canceled. If you kill off any other character, the show can go on. That’s what makes Nick special. To claim that this is not the case is equivalent to saying that Batman is not the most important character in Batman, that Robin Hood is not the most important character in Robin Hood or that Sherlock Holmes is not the most important character in Sherlock Holmes. The show is called Grimm and Nick is the only regular Grimm on the show.

Batman was a loner vigilante who took matters into his own hands in order to fight crime. He developed his own weapons and methods of fighting crime. He is a true protagonist.

I'm surprised you'd compare Nick to him. When did Nick ever take the loner path to fighting, like his mom and aunt? When did Nick ever solve a crime by himself? When was Nick ever shown to be a street smart cop? I can tell you. Never.

Right of the bat, he was given a network, not of supporting characters but of peers who in, most instances were more intelligent and saavy than he was. You may think of them as a bunch of tontos, it's apparent you think Nick is A number 1. But when I compare him to the protagonists I've seen on television, he just doesn't measure up. Being part of a team is his strength. That puts him on the same footing as Monroe as Juliette, as Rosalee, even as Hank and Wu. It does not raise him above them.

You say if he died the series wouldn't go on. I'm saying that if he didn't have his network of peers, he would have been gone long before cancellation. Don't forget, he had his powers taken away from him with little to no effort at all.

(05-25-2019, 10:53 AM)N_grimm Wrote: It's a typo, I know what you meant.

I know you did. I should not have typed that.

(05-25-2019, 10:53 AM)N_grimm Wrote: How could she say "I forgive you" when she refused to be Juliette? Eve was not Juliette. If you claim she had the ability to forgive, you must also ask yourself: why did SHE not apologize for her crimes?

In order to have forgiveness, you have to have characters who understand empathy, sympathy, and regret for their actions. By the time Juliette became a hexenbiest, all of that should have been in place to make an apology fit into the story *if* that was what the creative team was looking for.

As it was, they were not, so apologies, like Adalind's, simply fall flat. Adalind's character never should have been humiliated into attempting one. You of all people should know that since the first attempt was deleted.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-25-2019

There are a number of hero characters who have been replaced in their series, either temporarily of permanently (Batman, Iron Man, Captain America, Green Lantern, etc.). Most hero-based TV series that lose their leads don't last more than another season or two with a replacement. Ensemble series fare much better when a regular character departs.

Grimm started out as a single hero + a small number of supporting allies, with a bunch of relatively disposable background characters, then gradually migrated toward being an ensemble as more and more of the background characters became enlightened and drawn into the growing network of scoobies. In theory, Nick could have been phased out by introducing another grimm and having a "pass the torch" arc, but a sudden, catastrophic loss without another grimm waiting in the wings to step up would have been certain death to the series.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - dicappatore - 05-25-2019

(05-25-2019, 02:50 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: There are a number of hero characters who have been replaced in their series, either temporarily of permanently (Batman, Iron Man, Captain America, Green Lantern, etc.). Most hero-based TV series that lose their leads don't last more than another season or two with a replacement. Ensemble series fare much better when a regular character departs.

Grimm started out as a single hero + a small number of supporting allies, with a bunch of relatively disposable background characters, then gradually migrated toward being an ensemble as more and more of the background characters became enlightened and drawn into the growing network of scoobies. In theory, Nick could have been phased out by introducing another grimm and having a "pass the torch" arc, but a sudden, catastrophic loss without another grimm waiting in the wings to step up would have been certain death to the series.

True Face, but which of the other Grimms would have replaced Nick? Trubel? Josh, or some other European Grimm? But for sure, it would never be Juliette, as the enlighten one keeps on spewing on these threads about the main characters arguments. BTW, your use of "lead" character is spot on.

We saw how someone could get back her Hex and his Grimm. It was also insinuated that a human cold become a Hex but no where in the 6 seasons I saw any insinuations of a human becoming a Grimm. It was stated that could only happen through the bloodline.

So if we were to loose Nick as a Grimm lead character, given the stated fantasy rules of becoming a Grimm, how would any of the supporting cast such as Juliette, lacking the Grimm bloodline, such as Trubel and Josh had, how could she ever replace Him?


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - eric - 05-25-2019

Most shows cannot continue if the main/lead character dies. Of course, before the end of season 4, Kelly could have stepped in or Josh could have become a Grimm, moved to Portland for training like Truble and when Nick died take over. Course its a lot easier just to let Nick liveBig Grin.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - N_grimm - 05-25-2019

(05-25-2019, 12:05 PM)irukandji Wrote: Batman was a loner vigilante who took matters into his own hands in order to fight crime. He developed his own weapons and methods of fighting crime. He is a true protagonist.

I'm surprised you'd compare Nick to him. When did Nick ever take the loner path to fighting, like his mom and aunt? When did Nick ever solve a crime by himself? When was Nick ever shown to be a street smart cop? I can tell you. Never.

Right of the bat, he was given a network, not of supporting characters but of peers who in, most instances were more intelligent and saavy than he was. You may think of them as a bunch of tontos, it's apparent you think Nick is A number 1. But when I compare him to the protagonists I've seen on television, he just doesn't measure up. Being part of a team is his strength. That puts him on the same footing as Monroe as Juliette, as Rosalee, even as Hank and Wu. It does not raise him above them.

You say if he died the series wouldn't go on. I'm saying that if he didn't have his network of peers, he would have been gone long before cancellation. Don't forget, he had his powers taken away from him with little to no effort at all.

I’m not going to respond to the tirade of Nick hate. I’m just happy to observe that other members of this forum reject the complete untrue and arrogant claim that Nick was not the protagonist /lead character in Grimm. If you where right, it would have been a big blow to NBC and Universal Studios, who would have to withdraw all Blue-rays and DVDs so they could change the show description and remove the big pictures of Nick on the front cover. It would also have been a disappointment to David Giuntoli. If you google “grimm lead role” your first hit is David Giuntoli’s Wikipedia profile. That would all need to change, to replace him with Reggie Lee (Wu) and Bitsie Tulloch (Juliette).


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-25-2019

Assuming that a series continues after a cast change, even a major one, it's unlikely that media for previous seasons would be changed. The series would just move on with new media for subsequent seasons (that would attempt to make the change something exciting to potential viewers rather than a drawback).

What that would be would depend on the circumstances of the cast change. Is the actor not signing on for a new contract, but leaving on good terms and thus available to be in an extended exit arc? Or being suddenly dropped (fired), or fell off a mountain during the summer hiatus, requiring the showrunners to deal with a sudden absence? You can find examples of both in TV history.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 05-25-2019

(05-25-2019, 05:37 PM)N_grimm Wrote: I’m not going to respond to the tirade of Nick hate. I’m just happy to observe that other members of this forum reject the complete untrue and arrogant claim that Nick was not the protagonist /lead character in Grimm. If you where right, it would have been a big blow to NBC and Universal Studios, who would have to withdraw all Blue-rays and DVDs so they could change the show description and remove the big pictures of Nick on the front cover. It would also have been a disappointment to David Giuntoli. If you google “grimm lead role” your first hit is David Giuntoli’s Wikipedia profile. That would all need to change, to replace him with Reggie Lee (Wu) and Bitsie Tulloch (Juliette).

Well, first of all, despite what you like to think, you did respond.

Second, it's no secret that I don't like Nick. Among other things, I consider him a weak character who is needy, sometimes his needs are so important to him that he puts his friends' lives on the line. Think I'm the only one who considers Nick needy? There's a thread on the subject.

Third, please allow me to voice my opinion. You're quite big on telling me you should be allowed to voice yours yet you seem to have a problem with me voicing mine. It is not hatred to disagree with you that Nick is not a protagonist in comparison to Batman being a protagonist. You know that.

Last, you say if Nick died the series wouldn't go on. I disagree. Like FITC stated, series go on all of the time without main characters. (Yes, I said "Main", a word you're familiar with, since you used it continually up until recent posts.) You can speculate all you want about how it would be a big blow to NBC and Universal (which btw, would never be put into print). You can ramble on about how all of the Blue-rays and dvds would have to be withdrawn so they could change the show description (which by the way is bs). You can whine on about how it would have been a disappointment to David Giuntoli (which, btw, who cares?).

But in the end, it's all your opinion. Nothing more.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - dicappatore - 05-25-2019

Actually, the Batman series of movies have been redone with various actors playing the Dark Knight. Some were more successful than others but they did maintain mostly the same actor playing the lead role for the various re-vamps.

All I can add is, to Mr. "N". You been put on notice. Your claim of considering Nick as the main and lead character is just your lousy opinion. I guess we have some contributors that were watching the real show titled, "The Trials & Tribulations of Juliette Silverton and her sidekick, Nick the Grimm".

Just like when you were watching the Batman movies, the rest of us were watching "The Robin & Batman Movies". While you were watching Superman, we were watching "Lois Lane and her bumbling co-worker Clark Kent".

[Image: 51BeSO5icPL.jpg]

While you were watching "The Lone Ranger", we were watching "Stupid Man with Bird on Head".

Meanwhile Buddy, lets talk about this beautiful antiquated bridge below, I want to sell you!

[Image: BTSNYC-Experiences-On-Going-Secrets-Of-T...etails.jpg]


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-26-2019

I don't think you can count movies in this, because reboots and even continuations with recasting are relatively common and accepted in that medium. The 1989-1997 Batman movies had three different actors in the role of Bruce Wayne/Batman, and they were presented as a continuous series with no reboots or reimaginings. James Bond wasn't officially rebooted until Daniel Craig took the role. By comparison, TV series where the actor playing the primary character leaves and the series attempts to maintain original continuity with a different primary actor are rarer than hens teeth.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - N_grimm - 05-26-2019

(05-25-2019, 09:35 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Actually, the Batman series of movies have been redone with various actors playing the Dark Knight. Some were more successful than others but they did maintain mostly the same actor playing the lead role for the various re-vamps.

All I can add is, to Mr. "N". You been put on notice. Your claim of considering Nick as the main and lead character is just your lousy opinion. I guess we have some contributors that were watching the real show titled, "The Trials & Tribulations of Juliette Silverstone and her sidekick, Nick the Grimm".

Just like when you were watching the Batman movies, the rest of us were watching "The Robin & Batman Movies". While you were watching Superman, we were watching "Lois Lane and her bumbling co-worker Clark Kent".

[Image: 51BeSO5icPL.jpg]

While you were watching "The Lone Ranger", we were watching "Stupid Man with Bird on Head".

Meanwhile Buddy, lets talk about this beautiful antiquated bridge below, I want to sell you!

[Image: BTSNYC-Experiences-On-Going-Secrets-Of-T...etails.jpg]

Thanks for making me laugh in a world of madness!