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what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - Printable Version

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RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - brandon - 05-17-2019

Juliette did not lose her friends, it was her decision to move away from them.
Reject everything about them and consider her guilty of her own fall.
So I understand each chapter has a different director as it happens in other series but
if it's a long series or something like that they should at least agree on certain details of the plot, about the characters.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - eric - 05-18-2019

After her sudden change, Juliette did a lot of bad, evil things. After her total crash and burn at the end of season 4, she underwent a period of recovery and rebuilding. She did this mostly due to being brought under control by HW and renewed by the Stick, not by any new potion from her friends or by Nick. In the end when Nick said he still loved her, she said she had moved on and he should also. Some may not like or accept this story line, but based on personal experience, I found it believable. As I said earlier, I had other hopes for Juliette, but I was not in the room when the story line was being written.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - N_grimm - 05-18-2019

(05-18-2019, 08:21 AM)eric Wrote: After her sudden change, Juliette did a lot of bad, evil things. After her total crash and burn at the end of season 4, she underwent a period of recovery and rebuilding. She did this mostly due to being brought under control by HW and renewed by the Stick, not by any new potion from her friends or by Nick. In the end when Nick said he still loved her, she said she had moved on and he should also. Some may not like or accept this story line, but based on personal experience, I found it believable. As I said earlier, I had other hopes for Juliette, but I was not in the room when the story line was being written.

Excuse me eric, but Nick never said he loved Eve. He tried to help Juliette BEFORE she betrayed him. He forgave her in a way, but never forgot. When Nick went after Eve in 6x11 he was in love with Adalind, why would he tell Eve he loved her? That never happened. Eve said: "I know you're here because you loved me once, and you feel responsible for the bad things that have happened, but you can't change any of it".

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s06e11


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 05-18-2019

(05-18-2019, 08:21 AM)eric Wrote: After her sudden change, Juliette did a lot of bad, evil things. After her total crash and burn at the end of season 4, she underwent a period of recovery and rebuilding.

I'm not sure that Eve recovered. I do think she accepted the fate that was created for her. But I do have a question. Wouldn't you have thought that Nick would have been happy with her decision?


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - Hexenadler - 05-19-2019

(05-18-2019, 08:21 AM)eric Wrote: After her sudden change, Juliette did a lot of bad, evil things. After her total crash and burn at the end of season 4, she underwent a period of recovery and rebuilding.

There was no "recovery and rebuilding," Eric, because Eve denied being accountable for Juliette's actions right off the bat. This was by far one of the most morally reprehensible creative decisions the writers have ever made with their characters. Her monologue in 6x11 only made things worse instead of better, as she's still basically refusing to accept responsibility for Juliette's crimes. Nick went along with all this B.S. only because the writers told him to.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 05-19-2019

(05-17-2019, 07:07 AM)brandon Wrote: Juliette did not lose her friends, it was her decision to move away from them.

But here's the issue with that statement. It was never explained to the viewing audience the *reasons* why Juliette did what she did. For example, in all of the previous 3+ seasons, Juliette was never shown to be a barfly. She becomes a hexenbiest and all of a sudden she's at a bar, causing mayhem.

Now, the only explanation to this would seem to be that this hexenbiest took complete control and Juliette ended up at the bar because *it* wanted her there.

How many here have believed from day one that the hexenbiest was *not* in control of Juliette? Answer: the majority of the forum.

So then we're back to square one. We're got a main character with no reasons for her behavior. She was Nick's touchstone, friend to the scoobies, and aided the team. All of the sudden she begins to behave irratically. We have her main character partner, who, while he's supposedly a brilliant detective, is completely ignorant about her irratic behavior. Top it all off with the remaining supporting characters who exhibit paralyzing dumbness in the view of one of the most serious situations in the series.

(05-19-2019, 04:25 AM)Hexenadler
There was no "recovery and rebuilding," Eric, because Eve denied being accountable for Juliette's actions right off the bat. This was by far one of the most morally reprehensible creative decisions the writers have ever made with their characters. Her monologue in 6x11 only made things worse instead of better, as she's [i' Wrote:
still[/i] basically refusing to accept responsibility for Juliette's crimes. Nick went along with all this B.S. only because the writers told him to.

Hexenadler, I get what you're saying, but I also think the whole premise behind the character of Eve was that of a character who no one was going to get close to. Even Rosalee who is friend to all doesn't get within a mile of knowing what Eve is all about.

Aside from Nick accusing her of setting up his mother, even he doesn't try to get the facts behind the change. He's content to let her be known as Eve, while calling her Juliette from time to time.

I don't get Nick trying a philosophical conversation about "the way we were" when for two seasons, he could care less about the "way they were". I always wondered what he was looking for and what would he have done had Eve said she wanted things back the way they were. Would he have waved is magic stick and made it so?

In any case, I don't see where an apology from Eve would do any good because no one cares about her or she about them.

The other thing I wanted to bring up as a sign of regret was Adalind's apology. I don't question Adalind's sincerity, I wonder at her perceptions at the time. It seems to me people who are contemplating an apology should at least be in some kind of misery because of what they've done.

Adalind's misery isn't apparent at all. She's living comfortably in the fome, she's got Diana back, Kelly's there and she's got Nick. So let's just throw an apology in there when all is going great. It really fell flat as far as this viewer was concerned.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-19-2019

The wrapups of the Juliette/Eve and BC story arcs were rushed, "forced happy endings" that were basically attempts to shut down both with no lasting bad impacts on the characters. BC falls in a single night of battle, Renard somehow doesn't end up getting killed or disappeared to Gitmo, Nick's supposedly conflicted feelings toward Juliette/Eve and the mental health crisis that should have been Eve with Juliette's emotions and pre-hexenbiest personality restored by the stick get talked away in a single exchange instead of requiring months or years of therapy for the both of them and everybody ends up in a big group hug.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - eric - 05-19-2019

Since I don't have the script handy I went to the DVD and got closed captioning to check what was being said. In "Where the Wild Things Are", Nick and Eve leave the human village and go looking for Z. Once at the Circle Nick says that Eve is the way she is now(super hex) is because of him.
Eve - So you want to go back to the way things were? (before she was a hex)
Nick - Yes I do.
Eve - I don't. Juliette did a lot of bad things...but I am no Juliette anymore, she's gone. She may be a part of me but I'm not going back. I know you are here because you loved me once and feel responsible for what happened, but you can't change that and I can't change that.
Nick - Do you really think we are all better off?
Eve - I have a strength and purpose I never had before and you do also. I know you are here because you loved me once and feel responsible. You and I can't change it. Would you really want to go back just to be happy. Happy doesn't interest me anymore, it just gets in the way.
Big hug, Mr Z shows up.

So yes I do believe Eve had recovered, she was no longer a wild being with no control. She has been rebuilt into a new person, and accepts she can't return. Nick wanted to try to return to the past, but Eve knew that was no longer possible. Nick wanted a fairly tale ending, Eve accepted the new reality.


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - N_grimm - 05-19-2019

(05-19-2019, 03:30 PM)eric Wrote: Since I don't have the script handy I went to the DVD and got closed captioning to check what was being said. In "Where the Wild Things Are", Nick and Eve leave the human village and go looking for Z. Once at the Circle Nick says that Eve is the way she is now(super hex) is because of him.
Eve - So you want to go back to the way things were? (before she was a hex)
Nick - Yes I do.
Eve - I don't. Juliette did a lot of bad things...but I am no Juliette anymore, she's gone. She may be a part of me but I'm not going back. I know you are here because you loved me once and feel responsible for what happened, but you can't change that and I can't change that.
Nick - Do you really think we are all better off?
Eve - I have a strength and purpose I never had before and you do also. I know you are here because you loved me once and feel responsible. You and I can't change it. Would you really want to go back just to be happy. Happy doesn't interest me anymore, it just gets in the way.
Big hug, Mr Z shows up.

So yes I do believe Eve had recovered, she was no longer a wild being with no control. She has been rebuilt into a new person, and accepts she can't return. Nick wanted to try to return to the past, but Eve knew that was no longer possible. Nick wanted a fairly tale ending, Eve accepted the new reality.


eric, we have the script available. I've already given you the link in my last post. Nick never says he wants back to the way things were. These quotes are simply wrong!
These are the correct ones:

Nick: None of this would have ever happened to you if you hadn't met me.
Eve: So you think I wanna change that?
Nick: Yes, I do.
Eve: Well, I don't.

Nick thinks Eve would have been better of if Juliette never met him, he doesn’t say he wants to go back himself. Think about it, if he did, he would simply want to give up his son. After fighting to get Adalind and his son back in season 5, you think Nick would give it all up for the women who did more harm to him than all of his enemies together?


RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 05-20-2019

Oh, I think Nick was, in his roundabout way, wishing things hadn't come to that point.

He said it best to Eve:

Quote:None of this would have ever happened to you if you hadn't met me.

The only reason he's off the hook is because she said she didn't want to change things. I never considered it until now, but Nick has been walking around, guilt ridden for some time.