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+--- Thread: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? (/Thread-what-was-the-worst-betrayal-that-happened-during-the-show)
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 06-27-2019
Nick told Juliette it was his fault. Why would he say such a thing? It sounds like he feels like he's guilty, but he never says why he feels he's at fault.
Maybe he feels he's a fault because now that she's a hexenbiest, he can't stand her?
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - brandon - 06-28-2019
I said that maybe he felt guilt for what happened, adds that Juliette told her that she hated him-when was in jail-.
An honest person without feeling guilt for something that did not have to do or was indirectly.A psychopath would not feel anything.
Nick may have made mistakes in his life but nobody is perfect.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 06-29-2019
(06-28-2019, 06:24 AM)brandon Wrote: I said that maybe he felt guilt for what happened, adds that Juliette told her that she hated him-when was in jail-.
An honest person without feeling guilt for something that did not have to do or was indirectly.A psychopath would not feel anything.
Nick may have made mistakes in his life but nobody is perfect.
Consider what Nick loses if he didn't get his grimm back. First and foremost, he no longer had that "big bad something" that makes wesen afraid of him. Nick is needy. I have no doubt being a grimm made him feel that he was extraordinary, a step above the generic cop.
Second, Rosalee and Monroe. They're not going to hang around with him because the allure that drew them to him is gone. So there would be no more scoobies. Third, whatever perks he got from Renard would disappear. Renard no longer has his own grimm on the force, so why would Nick get special treatment? He's just another flatfoot. Fourth, the respect from some of the wesen (like Bud) would evaporate. After all, there's no grimm around to protect them. Fifth, would Hank really want to be his partner? Would Wu really want to associate with him?
Now consider what Nick gains if he remained human; Juliette. That's it, nothing more. Nick is left to seek a normal life in another city because what he had in Portland would be dead.
Nick said it was "all his fault", but did you notice that Nick really doesn't act like any of it is his fault? He isn't one bit guilty over being a grimm again or what it cost Juliette. The tension between them seems to indicate that *he* is blaming *her* for becoming a hexenbiest, like she wasn't strong enough to be able to overcome a magic spell.
It could very well be that Nick really and truly hates Juliette for turning into a hexenbiest. I don't remember her saying she hated him, but if that's what she told him, she was being honest with him. I don't know that the same can be said for Nick.
Izzy used to say that Nick was a sociopath. Sociopaths are liars.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - brandon - 06-29-2019
They can also be murderers without feeling and I did not see any of that in Nick.
If he lied, he did not tell him about his aunt's supposed commitment and what happened with Ariel.
I do not think that if he had said it would benefit him in something.
you really believe that there is someone perfect who has never lied to his parents, partner, friends?
I think there are things that are not said[/b]
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 06-29-2019
(06-29-2019, 07:04 AM)brandon Wrote: They can also be murderers without feeling and I did not see any of that in Nick.
If he lied, he did not tell him about his aunt's supposed commitment and what happened with Ariel.
I do not think that if he had said it would benefit him in something.
you really believe that there is someone perfect who has never lied to his parents, partner, friends?
I think there are things that are not said[/b]
All people do lie at one time or another in real life. But the majority of people also mature and realize that if they tell lie after lie after lie, they are no longer trustworthy, much less believable.
If you look at Nick in the series, he's actually become the sort of a person who lives a lie. He's lied enough to Juliette that she's perceptive enough to question his statements to her. She's his partner, the person who would know him best. And really, if you think about it, Nick's entire life is a lie. He covers up the existence of wesen because like everyone who knows about them, they don't feel the weak and frail human race can tolerate monsters.
However, that does not excuse him with Juliette. She knew about wesen and she was honest with him. She showed him what had happened to her. He tells her it's his fault she's become a hexenbiest but instead appears to blame her. Another lie and why? I think it's because he feels that being a grimm is his right. If he has to lie to her so what? If she gets hurt along the way, so what?
The world has their grimm back. Which really raises the question in my mind as to how important is it that Nick hunt the bad ones if the good ones also have to suffer right along with the bad ones.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - brandon - 06-29-2019
I do not think Nick hiding about the world. "Wesen" was a lie.
I have not seen him blame Juliette for becoming a "Hexenbest".
I said that Nick blamed himself.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 06-29-2019
(06-29-2019, 10:36 AM)brandon Wrote: I have not seen him blame Juliette for becoming a "Hexenbest" ,but himself.
Sure he did. He focused the whole blame on Juliette becoming a hexenbiest, not on him becoming a grimm again.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - N_grimm - 06-29-2019
(06-29-2019, 12:26 AM)irukandji Wrote: Consider what Nick loses if he didn't get his grimm back. First and foremost, he no longer had that "big bad something" that makes wesen afraid of him. Nick is needy. I have no doubt being a grimm made him feel that he was extraordinary, a step above the generic cop.
Second, Rosalee and Monroe. They're not going to hang around with him because the allure that drew them to him is gone. So there would be no more scoobies. Third, whatever perks he got from Renard would disappear. Renard no longer has his own grimm on the force, so why would Nick get special treatment? He's just another flatfoot. Fourth, the respect from some of the wesen (like Bud) would evaporate. After all, there's no grimm around to protect them. Fifth, would Hank really want to be his partner? Would Wu really want to associate with him?
Now consider what Nick gains if he remained human; Juliette. That's it, nothing more. Nick is left to seek a normal life in another city because what he had in Portland would be dead.
Hank and Wu had known and worked with Nick long before they were aware of him being a Grimm. Rosalee and Monroe became close friends with Nick - despite him being a Grimm and they Wesen. They had all been there for each other. When Nick lost his powers, and talked about living a normal life with Juliette, their where no indication that any of these friendships would suffer. The same goes for Bud and Trubel. Your theory that Nick would lose his friends if he did not become a Grimm again, couldn’t be further from the storyline. However, the show would be canceled after only 4 seasons.
(06-29-2019, 09:25 AM)irukandji Wrote: However, that does not excuse him with Juliette. She knew about wesen and she was honest with him. She showed him what had happened to her.
Honest? You mean when she told Renard but not Nick?
(06-29-2019, 09:25 AM)irukandji Wrote: The world has their grimm back. Which really raises the question in my mind as to how important is it that Nick hunt the bad ones if the good ones also have to suffer right along with the bad ones.
Juliette was not the good one at this stage. Nick suffered the most. He lost his mom, his girlfriend, the trailer, almost got Monroe and his unborn son killed. Nick did not know Juliette would become a hex. Sure, he needed some time to process the shock, just like Juliette walked out of the trailer and said Nick was crazy when he told her about being a Grimm. Nick tried to help her. He tried to accept her. She did not give him a change. Instead she threatened him, moved out and conspired with his worst enemies
(06-29-2019, 12:26 AM)irukandji Wrote: Izzy used to say that Nick was a sociopath. Sociopaths are liars.
Nick was needy? Nick was a sociopath? Nick fought against monsters no one else could see. Nick wanted to tell Juliette from an early stage, but Monroe warned him that the human brain could not process that kind of information. He tried to figure out how to tell Juliette without her thinking he was crazy and leaving (which was exactly how she reacted….). This is a standard element in most superhero shows, and doesn't mean the hero is a sociopath… Nick did what he thought was best for Juliette.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - irukandji - 06-29-2019
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: Hank and Wu had known and worked with Nick long before they were aware of him being a Grimm.
I know Hank and Wu worked with Nick before he became a grimm. That wasn't my point. I posed the question of whether Hank would want to partner with Nick if Nick lost his grimm or if Wu would want to associate with him if he lost his grimm.
You seem to be under the impression that Hank and Wu's lives haven't been changed once Nick became a grimm. That's not true. So why would you think that if Nick reverts to a true human, Hank and Wu are still going to want to partner/associate with him?
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: Rosalee and Monroe became close friends with Nick - despite him being a Grimm and they Wesen.
Monroe became friends with Nick *because* he was a grimm. It's doubtful that he would remain friends with Nick if Nick became a permanent, true human. Why would he? The allure of having a grimm as a pal is gone. They have nothing in common any longer. As for Rosalee, she goes where Monroe goes. If he doesn't hang with Nick, she wouldn't either.
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: They had all been there for each other. When Nick lost his powers, and talked about living a normal life with Juliette, their where no indication that any of these friendships would suffer. The same goes for Bud and Trubel. Your theory that Nick would lose his friends if he did not become a Grimm again, couldn’t be further from the storyline.
Actually, that's not correct. Nick talked about how appealing it would be to move some place new and have a new life and family with Juliette.
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: Honest? You mean when she told Renard but not Nick?
She told Nick why she went to Renard. She also told Nick why she didn't tell him first.
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: Juliette was not the good one at this stage. Nick suffered the most. He lost his mom, his girlfriend, the trailer, almost got Monroe and his unborn son killed. Nick did not know Juliette would become a hex. Sure, he needed some time to process the shock, just like Juliette walked out of the trailer and said Nick was crazy when he told her about being a Grimm. Nick tried to help her. He tried to accept her. She did not give him a change. Instead she threatened him, moved out and conspired with his worst enemies.
If you've been keeping up with recent developments, you wouldn't make such an inaccurate statement. There's nothing in my comments talking about anyone being the "good one at this stage".
I was talking about Nick telling Juliette this was because of him, because he became a grimm again. While he says he's sorry, his actions don't seem to reflect that he is sorry at all. In fact, he leaves her shortly after.
The tension that then starts to come up between him and Juliette seem to point to him blaming her for being a hexenbiest. While he tells Juliette that he loves her, he no longer sleeps with her, nor does he trust her.
Brandon mentioned that Juliette told Nick she hated him while she was in the prison cell. I very much think that Nick hated her as well.
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: Nick was needy?
Oh yes. Very much so. Nick could never be the proverbial grimm who exists on his own.
(06-29-2019, 05:42 PM)N_grimm Wrote: Nick fought against monsters no one else could see. Nick wanted to tell Juliette from an early stage, but Monroe warned him that the human brain could not process that kind of information.
Monroe is not an expert on human behavior. Nick should know better. As for wanting to confide in Juliette, it still continues to be a question today as to why Nick didn't share Marie's warning with Juliette.
RE: what was the worst betrayal that happened during the show? - brandon - 06-30-2019
There were other issues that Nick did not tell juliette and I do not consider him a liar for not saying them.
the subject of the "world Wesen"was not something easy to say.
I do not think Nick hated Juliette but clearly she rejected him from the beginning when she became a " Hexenbiest".
Juliette earned her hatred when she set the trailer on fire, it was the accomplice of Kelly's death and the neighbors.