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+--- Thread: "Good Intentions" in Grimm (/Thread-Good-Intentions-in-Grimm)
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - Hell Rell - 01-08-2019
(01-08-2019, 10:02 PM)irukandji Wrote:(01-08-2019, 07:33 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Adalind, the character, would disagree with you about having nothing to be afraid of and Nick never questioned it himself. You said she was secure but she obviously didn't feel this way. From an objective standpoint, she was safe but that's not what matters here. That doesn't make her feelings any less real.
Adalind, the character, might just disagree with you. I don't recall her showing any fear during the entire series run. Allow me to question why, when she finally gets the protection she wants from the man she bargained with, does she suddenly show fear when Nick's in the next room and....how did you put it? He could kill anything that came through her door. Tell me how that works.
(01-08-2019, 07:33 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: This will keep falling on deaf ears. The generic Hexenbiest now matters more than Adalind as an individual. She may as well not be a character that we followed for six years and just be thought of as a typical WotW.
I guess we can also say that Rosalee is putting on an act as well. From the way Monroe initially described Fuchsbau, there's no way Rosalee is the real deal. We should also be highly suspicious of Juliette's friend as well.
You're all up in arms about Adalind's feelings and how sincere she is now and how she would never manipulate anyone, ever. How about talking about Hank. Does Adalind matter more to him as an individual or does he still look upon her as a hexenbiest?
Adalind hasn't shown any fear? You're joking, right. Adalind has probably shown just as much fear if not more than any other character in the show and I say that knowing she hasn't appeared in as many episodes nor has nearly as much screentime as most of the characters do. The only one that rivals her is Juliette when she was regaining her memories and when she became a Hexenbiest because those were arcs that lasted for a handful of episodes or so. I'm still not sure Juliette actually matched her fear on a consistent basis.
I really don't feel like I need to list all the different instances of Adalind becoming hysterical and being scared out of her mind because I'm sure other posters will come along to do it.
I'm not up in arms about Adalind's feelings and I really don't know why I keep having to reiterate I'm not angry when I type this out. I'm just telling you what I saw on screen and using the proper context, without ignoring any of it, to explain why I came to a different conclusion then your own.
As for Hank, I would say it's pretty obvious that he looks at her as an actual person instead of just a Hexenbiest. He hasn't been shown to be uncomfortable at all around her and he put what happened between them in the past even though I personally wouldn't but I'm not Hank.
Also, I didn't say Adalind would never manipulate anyone again but she wasn't shown doing that to anyone other than Renard in the final two seasons and she wasn't nearly as good at it as she used to be. I will say that it's highly unlikely that she would manipulate Nick or his friends, whom became her friends, in any significant way based on the character she ended up as in the end. It seems more likely that Adalind can get what she wants from them just by being straight up with them from now on.
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - syscrash - 01-08-2019
I think it is funny. so many post sighting things Adalind has said to prove she was sincere. That is why scams work. If you get someone to believe what you saw and ignore what you do. That is what makes someone a perfect mark. I will say it again. Name one thing Adalind has done on the show that was not a direct benefit to her. That was the thing about Eve. She was completely selfless. She made it an issue that she did not have time to think about herself. All other characters even Sean did something selfless. Take waking Julette up. Yes helping Julette would help keep Nick around. which is what Sean wanted. But it was still something he did risking himself for someone else. Something he did not directly benefit from.
lets take the cloth. Rosalee and Eve spent time trying to figure it out. Adalind spent no time helping.
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - Henry of green - 01-09-2019
(01-08-2019, 11:22 PM)syscrash Wrote: I think it is funny. so many post sighting things Adalind has said to prove she was sincere. That is why scams work. If you get someone to believe what you saw and ignore what you do. That is what makes someone a perfect mark. I will say it again. Name one thing Adalind has done on the show that was not a direct benefit to her. That was the thing about Eve. She was completely selfless. She made it an issue that she did not have time to think about herself. All other characters even Sean did something selfless. Take waking Julette up. Yes helping Julette would help keep Nick around. which is what Sean wanted. But it was still something he did risking himself for someone else. Something he did not directly benefit from.
lets take the cloth. Rosalee and Eve spent time trying to figure it out. Adalind spent no time helping.
Adalind did help Rosalee and Eve with the cloth they were all seen discussing it together in episode 2 of season 6. She rescued Eve from the tunnel when Diana warned her she was down there and hurt. She shouted for Tony to leave Rosalee alone dispite her thinking she was just a human at the time and Tony attacked her . She told Diana to go and warn Nick that Boneparte was coming dispite the fact he nearly killed her, it would be in her best interest not to defy Bonaparte, yet she did anyway even though she knew he could hurt her children . She also tried to get a message to Nick via wu even before that only Renard interrupted her. None of this benefits Adalind she simply could have turned her back on Nick and went along willingly with being Renards wife, but she didn’t she defied Boneparte so much he forces a cursed ring upon her finger.
She defended Nick against Zerstorer and took an axe for him and her final words were for him to take care of the kids which was a very unselfish act, before you come up with some nonsense about Nick not being able to be killed until he handed over the staff, Adalind didn’t know that at the time when she took the axe.
She helped Nick take down Renard dispite it being in her best interest not to as Renard was winning at that point Nick was on the run and she was the Portland Mayors fake wife and she had both her kids with her.
There is no scam except for the one you conjuring up from thin air , Adalind was shown crying over leaving Nick in 5x19 when no one was there except Kelly so who exactly was she minipulating. She was shown nearly crying holding Kelly and saying daddy is going to be ok in season 6 episode 1. She was shown to be deeply sad when Nick left for Germany even when Nick turned his back and left the room her eyes were watering up. who exactly was she minipulating when she was shown setting in the loft crying about her powers coming back with no one else there except Kelly who was she scamming then.
Renard, Diana, Trubel have all admitted out loud that they know Adalind loves Nick, the writers and actors involved have stated Adalinds feelings for Nick are genuine, so beyond your made up nonsense of supposed minipulation and ignoring Adalinds character development and basically seeing her as season 1 Adalind.
Also I personally accept Juliettes explanation to Nick that she didn’t know that Kenneth was going to do that to kelly in season 4 , but your hypocrisy knows no bounds as you accept Juliettes excuse for getting Kelly killed even though she tried to kill Nick two seconds after giving him the explanation about Kelly’s death, yet Adalind is lying about everything despite not trying to harm Nick once in the last few seasons convenient for you.
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - syscrash - 01-09-2019
[quote]
Adalind did help Rosalee and Eve with the cloth they were all seen discussing it together in episode 2 of season 6. She rescued Eve from the tunnel when Diana warned her she was down there and hurt. She shouted for Tony to leave Rosalee alone dispite her thinking she was just a human at the time and Tony attacked her . She told Diana to go and warn Nick Boneparte was coming dispite the fact he nearly killed her, it would be in her best interest not to defy Bonaparte, yet she did anyway even though she knew he could hurt her children . She also tried to get a message to Nick via wu even before that only Renard interrupted her. None of this benefits Adalind she simply could have turned her back on Nick and went along willingly with being Renards wife, but she didn’t she defied Boneparte so much he forces a cursed ring upon her finger.
[\quote]
your list is long but not one selfless act. Every one of the things you mentioned she directly benefited from. yes she could have turned her back on any of them. But she benefited from intervening. Is it you don't consider attacking an enemy as being self serving?
When I talk about being selfless. I consider Sean waking Juliette selfless. He gained no direct advantage. In fact it made him the subject of the infatuation spell. Juliette helped get Nick powers back. There was nothing in it for her. Wu helped take down the mansion. What was in it for him. The Royals where not his enemy. How many times did Monroe risk his life to help Nick.
You keep basing your arguments one dialog and ignore there actions. You use Juliette admonition that she did not know. They showed she did not know. they where never shown discussing it. They also showed her staying upstairs.
Wouldn't manipulation include saying what she did to get the reaction she did. You use her crying telling Nick her powers are back shows she is sincere. Yet you ignore all her actions up to that point. You ignore what lead to that confession. Remember it was after Eve told her she had her powers, and then Sean found out she had her powers. It was then she make her emotional confession. See knew having her powers would be a problem. So she tell Nick in a way that is the most unlikely to cause Nick to have a negative reaction. They showed us Nicks response to the News when Eve told him. He was not happy. The point is giving bad news in a way to control the other persons reaction is manipulation. A female crying and upset about some news is a standard stereotypical troupe used to show a women using her sexuality against a male. The same is true with the use of sex. How many times did Adalind use sex in the execution of a mission.
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - Henry of green - 01-09-2019
I didn’t use her crying and telling her powers were back as an example, I used the fact Adalind was crying and very upset about leaving Nick in 5x19 telling Kelly I cant take you away from your daddy but I can’t leave Diana either, I used the fact she was holding Kelly rocking back and fourth nearly crying telling kelly daddy’s gonna be okay . Adalind was shown crying over Nick more than once when nonbody but Kelly was in the room.
Adalind: Daddy's gonna be all right. It's okay. Daddy's gonna be all right.
[Kelly coos]
Adalind: Daddy's gonna be all right. Yeah. [She hears a door close so she lays Kelly in his bed] It's okay.
[Renard walks into the room]
Adalind: Is Nick dead?
Renard: No.
Adalind: What did you do to him?
Renard: Not much. [He looks out a window]
Adalind: Is he okay?
Renard: He's alive.
Adalind: Well, then how are you here? What are you doing still alive?
Renard: Thanks for your concern.
Adalind: You and Bonaparte went to kill Nick. Why should I be concerned about you?
Renard: Bonaparte is dead.
Sean told Adalinds mother he was only waking up Juliette so Nick would stay in Portland were Renard could influence. him, how in the hell is that not self serving.
Adalind literally dragged an injured Eve up from the tunnels how is selfish, she could have just left her there and pretended Diana hadn’t told her about Eve and Nick would have been none the wiser an injured Eve was below.
Ignoring actions really that’s rich, did Adalind not send Diana to warn Nick despite the fact Boneparte warned her if she didn’t play along he’d hurt her kids. That’s an action, Adalind was in the other room when Rosalee was attacked she came running in from where she was checking on Kelly and told Tony to leave Rosalee alone she could have simply stayed out of it Tonys not her enemy just like the Royals aren’t Wu’s, he only attacked Adalind when she got involved, so she didn’t just attack an enemy as you claim. Did she not help Monroe escape the mansion and supply him with what they needed for the spell in 6x03 that’s an action. she made a trust me knot for Nick is that not an action ,she tried to get a message to Nick via Wu even before Boneparte forced her hand is that not an action. Did she not minipulate Renard into staying in and watching the big announcement in 6x03 how is that not an action to help Nick.
Adalind took an axe and died for Nick you can conjuring up whatever nonsense you want but these are the facts.
Adalind was going to testify and lie in a court for Nick what was in it for her, she already had her kids and was living with the Mayor in a big mansion who was the father of one of them. She still kept on helping Nick take down Renard and even threatened him after that even though Renard threatened Adalind, she didn’t personally benfiet from any of this.
What exactly had Adalind to benfiet from turning down Renard and refusing to be unfaithful to Nick or taking multiple taxis to the mansion to hide Nicks location or refusing to tell Boneparte the location until he nearly kills her to get it , Adalind doesn’t benifet from any of this she already has her babies she doesn’t need to protect Nick and warn him but she cares about him so she does.
As for Juliette’s actions she set up stairs and listened to Kelly’s death moans, she goes downstairs were Kenneth informs her they got her meaning Kelly’ then points to Diana and says and we’ve got her, Juliette certainly showed plenty of actions setting up Kelly’s ambush, leading her straight into it via phone and showed zero actions trying to stop Kenneth from killing Kelly or even her telling him off for killing Kelly yet she should be believed when she told Nick she didn’t know that would happen yet Adalind who put herself and children in danger to help Nick shouldn’t believed, what hypocrisy.
Are you calling the actors and writers liars when they have all said Adalind has changed.
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - irukandji - 01-09-2019
(01-08-2019, 10:28 PM)Henry of green Wrote: How on earth has Adalind never shown fear, she was truly terrified in episode 3 of season 1 when the melifiers were after her, she was so fearful you could see it in her face when the bees attacked and Nick and Hank were in the other room trying to keep the bees out. Adalinds hand was trembling and fingers twitching when Nick confronted her about his aunts murder also in that 1x03 episode.
She was terrified in 1x17 when she lost her powers she even asked her mom and Renard what they will do to her and she cried like a baby.
She was terrified also terrified when her and Miesner were on the run with baby Diana,
She was terrified and crying like a baby when viktor threw her in the dungeon in season 4.
She was terrified when Juliette kicked her ass in 4x13 and she was terrified of Juliette in the station.
Fear and being a drama queen has also been part of Adalinds character so your above statement makes zero sense.
And yet, none of these episodes, I repeat, none of them had any bearing on Adalind at all. For all of her "terrified" outlook, she still wanted to name Viktor as her unborn baby's father **over** Nick.
For all of her so called terrified outlook at Nick over Marie's murder, she still went after him for the key and poisoned both Hank and Wu in the process.
For all of her terrified outlook of Juliette at the station, she managed to taunt Juliette while Nick was standing there.
These are some really poor examples because in every single one, Adalind did not let that terrified outlook get to her but always moved on. Yes, I would call that fearless.
She certainly showed no fear of staying with Nick at his former house and had no nightmares of bees, Marie, or Juliette while she was at Bud's.
Now that she's in the fome, and her and baby are safe with Nick, she decides she's so frightened Nick has to sleep with her? Right.
(01-09-2019, 01:12 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Adalind is lying about everything despite not trying to harm Nick once in the last few seasons convenient for you.
I don't recall anyone stating she was lying about everything.
(01-08-2019, 11:18 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: As for Hank, I would say it's pretty obvious that he looks at her as an actual person instead of just a Hexenbiest. He hasn't been shown to be uncomfortable at all around her and he put what happened between them in the past even though I personally wouldn't but I'm not Hank.
Based on what? Her being nice to Nick? When when was their last heart to heart where Adalind apologized to him and treated him like a person instead of a thing?
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - Henry of green - 01-09-2019
Adalind didn’t taunt Juliette in the station she simply told Wu they weren’t sorting nothing and and she needs to go that’s not even remotely close to a taunt .
Poor examples really ?
How exactly did she show no fear at buds, she was literally terrified Nick was going to kill her after the cure worked for Juliette and she tells Rosalee she’s scared. Also Hank actually sticks around at buds for extra for extra protection for Adalind.
Rosalee: [To Adalind] How are you feeling?
Adalind: Tired, angry, and scared
Adalind: What happened with Juliette? She drank it, didn't she? It worked. I saved her. And now you're here to get rid of me.
Nick: Adalind, I'm not gonna hurt you.
Adalind: Well, why not? If she's better, then—
Nick: It didn't work.
You would call Adalind getting outsmarted and getting her ass kicked by a novice Grimm and having to run home to mommy in tears like a toddler who’s lost thier dummy fearless, ok you and I have a very different definition of fearless. The only reason she walked away from that episode still alive was because Nick showed her mercy and as for it having no bearing, she spent nearly 2 years after that trying to get her powers back and in the process had Diana and lost her, that is the episode that kicked it all off for Adalind yet it supposedly had no bearing. Adalind also often mentioned that night for years to come about how her mother kicked her out and how Renard turned his back on her clearly it had bearing on Adalind.
Also she was right to be afraid in the Melifier episode as she would have been killed in that episode by the Melifier Queen and her sting needle if not for Nick allowing her to live again by shooting the queen before she can stab Adalind as well as Hank who’s trying to stop the queen from using the needle on Adalind, so clearly both episodes had a bearing on Adalind.
I just watched that part of 4x19 were Adalind tells Nick about the baby and when Renard goes to find Nick, just before they enter Renards office we see Adalind nervous and bitting her thumb she’s clearly a bag of nerves and scared at the start of that scene.
https://youtu.be/19XWIIi1fZQ
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - irukandji - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 07:17 AM)Henry of green Wrote: How exactly did she show no fear at buds, she was literally terrified Nick was going to kill her after the cure worked for Juliette and she tells Rosalee she’s scared. Also Hank actually sticks around at buds for extra for extra protection for Adalind.
Isn't this post a contradiction in terms? You're saying one minute that Adalind was terrified at Bud's because she was afraid Nick was going to kill her after the cure worked. Yet, what was all of the hoopla at the police station about Nick protecting her unborn child? So what happened, did Nick somehow have a change of heart? In other words, at the police precinct, he wants to protect Adalind's unborn child, but once he gets back to Bud's, he wants to kill the unborn child?
I'm not recalling the scene that you mention with Hank and Adalind. So Adalind actually interacted with Hank and perhaps apologized for treating him so badly?
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - Hell Rell - 01-09-2019
I recall saying Hank wasn't shown to be uncomfortable around Adalind. Heart-to-heart or not, Hank and Adalind got along amicably and he didn't seem to have any animosity towards her. This is consistent with the scenes they shared together and was even the case when he went to the fome for the first time and she had baked cookies.
You keep coming up with reasons why they shouldn't trust or like Adalind. This is the same thing some people do with Juliette at times. It can't be stated enough that the show's internal logic doesn't work that way. That's why I said I wouldn't be nearly as nice to Adalind as Hank was and I don't think I could stomach being around her after what she did to him.
You already know how I differentiate describing what happened vs. how I feel about it. Look no further than my posts on GoT.
RE: "Good Intentions" in Grimm - syscrash - 01-09-2019
Being a descent person , doing what is right is not being selfless. Being selfless is when what you do has a cost and not benefit. Of all the things you mentioned either there was no cost , or it was in her best interest. Take her interaction with Sean. It is her best interest to maintain a divide with Sean in case she had to make another choose to protect her and her kids.
Just because Adalind changed has nothing to do with what she is and how she thinks. Because she no longer reviles in intimidating, and seeking power does not mean she is any less self serving. The time she attacked Z. Her backup was dying. Her actions where more to save her life then for the benefits. of others. It would be different if she was safe and z was in no way a threat to her. Yet she still joined the fight Like Monroe has done several times. Like Juliette did during the zombie attack. Like Wu did on the raid of the mansion.
You sight helping Eve out of the tunnel. What was the cost. That is not a selfless act. That is being a decent person. The trust me knot would benefit her. Protecting Nick is in her best interest. You always keep a second option. Nick was another option. Yes she was emotional about leaving, but it was about taking Kelly from Nick. I never said Adalind was heartless. Several times she has recounted how her relationship with her mother hurt her. So yes Nick and Kelly together would be of consideration to her. But that has nothing to do with her doing what is best for her. Which is exactly what she did. I have seen arguments she left to protect her kids. I ask which is safer. Being in the mansion with no one to watch her back. or being at the fome where you have Nick and the rest of the group to watch her back. She goes to Nick to protect her. The first time she is threatened she has no faith that he can protect her. That is viewing the situation from a self serving point of view.
Quote:killing Kelly yet she should be believed when she told Nick she didn’t know that would happen yet Adalind who put herself and children in danger to help Nick shouldn’t believed,Why would Juliette intervene and try and stop Kenneth. Like she said she thought they only wanted Diana. Her not intervening has nothing to do with how she feels about what Kenneth did. You say Adalind put herself in danger. What do you consider Adalind being in danger to help Nick.
What is funny being selfless would be opposite of a hexenbiest nature. Vanity and being self centered is a stated hexenbiest trait. It is in the book, it is shown in there actions, it was explained by her mother.
Quote:You keep coming up with reasons why they shouldn't trust or like Adalind. This is the same thing some people do with Juliette at times. It can't be stated enough that the show's internal logic doesn't work that way. That's why I said I wouldn't be nearly as nice to Adalind as Hank was and I don't think I could stomach being around her after what she did to him.The logic works. With the humans on the show, the writers go overboard to show they are decent people. They are shown to always be willing to turn the other check. With the wesen they hold a grudge and never forget. Someone else problems are not theirs. That is not to say they don't help others solve problems, but they are not shown to hold a grudge behind someone else issues.
I guess it takes understanding the message the writers are making. The entire show is about what makes us human. What differentiates us from the other animals on the planet. The biggest difference shown is the deference between how humans view death and how wesen view death.
here is a quote that sums up the wesen position
"D. H. Lawrence Quotes. I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."
That is where I see the disagreement in so many of these post. People continuously want to view wesen from a human point of view. They over look every wesen has made the statement when aggravated. I will ripe their throat out. For a wesen that is not hyperbole. With wesen it is shown that is what they do. It is also shown the humans find that view point disturbing.
consider the difference in their views on revenge. Rosalee ripped the guys throat out was was glad about it. Compare that with Nick killing kenneth, no signs of joy. Here is another. During wesenrein Juliette had a gun yet she heisted to kill the guy. After turning into a hexenbiest =, at first she realized she had killed the guy, but that did not last long until she took on the attitude that she was ok with it. When Nick her if she was ok she answers I think so.