(10-31-2018, 09:44 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-31-2018, 09:34 AM)Henry of green Wrote:

(10-31-2018, 09:15 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-31-2018, 08:46 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Face, no one killed Marie her heart give up due to the stress of having to figth off the assassins hired by Adalind and Renard they were certainly responsible partly for the stress that killed her but no one killed Marie.

Whether the assassin beat her up or put a bullet in her, it's murder. Trying to split hairs doesn't make it less so.

By the way, this is coming from a person who's insistent that Juliette murdered Kelly even though there was no evidence to support that.

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(10-31-2018, 04:56 AM)brandon Wrote: Well, that idea seemed to be in juliette's mind.

No, that idea was clearly presented on screen.

I’ve never once stated that Juliette killed kelly, I just stated she was involved whether she meant to or not it doesn’t matter, just like Adalind was involved in the event that caused Marie’s death but neither woman directly killed Marie or Kelly, so please get your facts right before posting.

Why don't you clarify what you mean by "involved".

(10-31-2018, 02:57 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: It's not unfair to say Adalind and Juliette were involved in the deaths of Marie and Kelly, Adalind the former and Juliette the latter. I thought both argument was stemming from making it seem like they killed each with their own hands. That isn't the case but they were clearly involved and had bad intentions. At the very least, both were trying to cause harm to,their intended victim. Even if you don't believe Juliette knew about his Kelly was going to be killed, she at least knew there was an ambush waiting for her.

(10-31-2018, 02:57 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: It's not unfair to say Adalind and Juliette were involved in the deaths of Marie and Kelly, Adalind the former and Juliette the latter. I thought the argument was stemming from making it seem like they killed each with their own hands. That isn't the case but they were clearly involved and had bad intentions. At the very least, both were trying to cause harm to their intended victim. Even if you don't believe Juliette knew about how Kelly was going to be killed, she at least knew there was an ambush waiting for her.

(10-31-2018, 02:55 PM)Henry of green Wrote: No problem I’ll clarify, who was it agian lured Kelly to Portland under false pretenses, led her directly into a deadly ambush while reassuring Kelly everything was perfectly fine, causing Kelly to be totally unaware of the deadly ambush . Who give kellys would be killers handy advice about how dangerous Kelly is and not to underestimate her, who showed the would be killers every inch of her and Nicks house to make sure there was nowhere for Kelly to escape and also give up her own nieghbours to the Mercy of the would be killers. clearly she didn’t care if they lived or died as she was smiling while handing over their details to the the would be killers. Remind also who was it who set upstairs listening to kellys brutal Murder thanks to the ambush she helped organize even if she didn’t know for sure kelly would be killed, Juliette clearly didn’t care ethier way as she done absolutely nothing to help Kelly at all. Also if that wasn’t enough she then went back to Nicks house and tried to Murder kellys son straight after telling him she didn’t know the Royals would kill Kelly. That seems pretty involved whether or not she know the outcome would end in Kelly’s Murder matters little considering she is the most involved in setting up her death whether knowingly or not she set up the murder of Kelly Burkhardt the Royals couldn’t have done it without her.

(10-31-2018, 07:56 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-31-2018, 02:57 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: It's not unfair to say Adalind and Juliette were involved in the deaths of Marie and Kelly, Adalind the former and Juliette the latter. I thought the argument was stemming from making it seem like they killed each with their own hands. That isn't the case but they were clearly involved and had bad intentions. At the very least, both were trying to cause harm to their intended victim. Even if you don't believe Juliette knew about how Kelly was going to be killed, she at least knew there was an ambush waiting for her.

Adalind would have been guilty of attempted murder on Marie when she masqueraded as the nurse. Later, she would be guilty of murder because she transferred her intent to murder Marie to an assassin. No one is making it seem like Adalind and Renard killed Marie with their bare hands. What's being stated is that they are just as guilty as the assassin since their intent was to murder Marie.

As for Juliette, no one can state for sure what she knew or didn't know. That would require knowledge of the workings of her mind. The only things we know about Juliette and that night are what the series chose to reveal to the audience.

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(10-31-2018, 02:55 PM)Henry of green Wrote: No problem I’ll clarify, who was it agian lured Kelly to Portland under false pretenses, led her directly into a deadly ambush while reassuring Kelly everything was perfectly fine, causing Kelly to be totally unaware of the deadly ambush . Who give kellys would be killers handy advice about how dangerous Kelly is and not to underestimate her, who showed the would be killers every inch of her and Nicks house to make sure there was nowhere for Kelly to escape and also give up her own nieghbours to the Mercy of the would be killers. clearly she didn’t care if they lived or died as she was smiling while handing over their details to the the would be killers. Remind also who was it who set upstairs listening to kellys brutal Murder thanks to the ambush she helped organize even if she didn’t know for sure kelly would be killed, Juliette clearly didn’t care ethier way as she done absolutely nothing to help Kelly at all. Also if that wasn’t enough she then went back to Nicks house and tried to Murder kellys son straight after telling him she didn’t know the Royals would kill Kelly. That seems pretty involved whether or not she know the outcome would end in Kelly’s Murder matters little considering she is the most involved in setting up her death whether knowingly or not she set up the murder of Kelly Burkhardt the Royals couldn’t have done it without her.

I agree Juliette lured Kelly to Portland under false pretenses. That's not a crime.

A majority of your post is either completely untrue or speculation. For example, Juliette did not lead Kelly into a deadly ambush. Juliette was upstairs and never met Kelly face to face. So she didn't "lead" Kelly anywhere.

One other thing which you mentioned, but then proceeded to deliberately overlook is the fact that Kelly, as a grimm, is herself a deadly weapon. Juliette knew this so whether or not the confrontation would be deadly would depend on who got the upperhand. That would have been an unknown to Juliette.

I'm curious. You said Juliette was listening to Kelly's brutal murder. What did you hear that led you to the conclusion that Kelly had been murdered?

(10-31-2018, 09:34 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Juliette didn't just send Kelly email. She also provided Kenneth with intel on the neighbors, and from the second floor of the house acted as Kenneth's spotter as Kelly approached (she was on the phone with him right up until Kelly entered the house). These were active roles in the home invasions of the neighbors and in Kelly's ambush.

Commit any felony violation of the law and a resulting death is felony murder, regardless of intent or prior knowledge. It's not first degree or aggravated, but it's still called murder in Oregon.

Oh, and Juliette is indeed shown listening to the ambush from the upstairs. We hear growling, a woman crying out and a child crying.

(11-01-2018, 04:28 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(10-31-2018, 09:34 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Juliette didn't just send Kelly email. She also provided Kenneth with intel on the neighbors, and from the second floor of the house acted as Kenneth's spotter as Kelly approached (she was on the phone with him right up until Kelly entered the house). These were active roles in the home invasions of the neighbors and in Kelly's ambush.

Commit any felony violation of the law and a resulting death is felony murder, regardless of intent or prior knowledge. It's not first degree or aggravated, but it's still called murder in Oregon.

Oh, and Juliette is indeed shown listening to the ambush from the upstairs. We hear growling, a woman crying out and a child crying.

I know she provided intel on the neighbors. Henry wasn't talking about that. He was specifically referring to Kelly.

All I am saying is that the audience saw nothing that conclusively tied her to the murders. She gave information on the neighbors to Kenneth. That's as far as it went. There was no discussion between Kenneth and Juliette where Kenneth specifically outlined how he was going to murder the neighbors.

You can assume it. You can assume Juliette had to know, you can assume anything you want regarding that information. It still comes down to there's no conclusive proof. It's also not a crime to give out information on your neighbors. A little perusing on the internet would have probably gotten him much more.


I totally agree that Juliette was listening upstairs. We saw that. I don't recall her telling Kenneth on the phone that Kelly was coming, but if you say so, then she did.
Did she know the precise exact moment when Kelly was murdered? I don't know how without seeing it with her own eyes.

I'm not saying Juliette was innocent. She's not. I was merely pointing out that what henry stated was a lot of speculation and some of it was not correct.

(10-31-2018, 02:57 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Your original question was based on the premise that the jury saw everything we saw and not on what could be proven in court. Post #587, in case you've forgotten.

IOW, the jury sees all of Adalind's meetings with Renard in which he gave her his instructions, whatever she did to that annoying guy who interrupted one of those meetings, her feeding Hank poisoned cookies, her attempts at extortion, her private conversations with Nick, etc. They would also see the circumstances of Juliette's transformation and her activities as a scoobie prior to that.

So the "criminal record" here is every episode from the first four seasons. And maybe the deleted scenes off the DVDs and YouTube.