+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Grimm Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Discussions)
+--- Thread: Hexenbiestdom (/Thread-Hexenbiestdom)
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 10-29-2018
(10-29-2018, 02:32 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Would all these legalities also apply to Juliette in the murders of all her neighbors and Nick's mom, since some, wet noodle wack-a-do keeps claiming how Adalind was responsible for his aunt death but Juliette was not to blame or responsible for all the murdered neighbors and his mom?
Probably not. There'd be charges, but they'd be different and lesser.
Adalind tried to kill Marie, then arranged a hit during which Marie died . That's attempted murder for the first try, aggravated murder (murder for hire) for the second. Penalty: 7 years 6 months minimum for the first attempt, life without parole or death for the second.
Juliette assisted with a kidnapping that ended in murders. But unless evidence can be found that she actually knew the murders would happen (should have known isn't enough), the most likely charge is felony murder (death which occurs during the commission of a felony). Penalty: 6 yrs 3 mos minimum.
However, Adalind was a criminal from the start, and acted with "premeditation" and "malice aforethought." Juliette was a full-fledged member of Team Scoobie who was inadvertently and unwillingly transformed into a hexenbiest. She went into a conspicuous downward emotional spiral with unstable behavior that radically altered her personality prior to her ultimate crime. Further complicating matters, an agency of the US govt took her and subjected her to unspecified mind altering treatments. So there was probably already a basis for a possible "qualifying mental disorder" defense, and then HW's abduction and brainwashing would probably result in all the charges being thrown out anyway.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - Henry of green - 10-29-2018
(10-29-2018, 07:35 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(10-29-2018, 02:32 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Would all these legalities also apply to Juliette in the murders of all her neighbors and Nick's mom, since some, wet noodle wack-a-do keeps claiming how Adalind was responsible for his aunt death but Juliette was not to blame or responsible for all the murdered neighbors and his mom?
Probably not. There'd be charges, but they'd be different and lesser.
Adalind tried to kill Marie, then arranged a hit during which Marie died . That's attempted murder for the first try, aggravated murder (murder for hire) for the second. Penalty: 7 years 6 months minimum for the first attempt, life without parole or death for the second.
Juliette assisted with a kidnapping that ended in murders. But unless evidence can be found that she actually knew the murders would happen (should have known isn't enough), the most likely charge is felony murder (death which occurs during the commission of a felony). Penalty: 6 yrs 3 mos minimum.
However, Adalind was a criminal from the start, and acted with "premeditation" and "malice aforethought." Juliette was a full-fledged member of Team Scoobie who was inadvertently and unwillingly transformed into a hexenbiest. She went into a conspicuous downward emotional spiral with unstable behavior that radically altered her personality prior to her ultimate crime. Further complicating matters, an agency of the US govt took her and subjected her to unspecified mind altering treatments. So there was probably already a basis for a possible "qualifying mental disorder" defense, and then HW's abduction and brainwashing would probably result in all the charges being thrown out anyway.
Face, Juliette also attempted murder she tried to kill Adalind in 4x17 and she tried to kill Nick in 4x22. She also attempted to force Nick to kill Monroe in 4x21.
Also that’s your opinion she was a criminal priror to the show as we have no hint whatsoever she had a criminal record.
(10-29-2018, 10:41 PM)Henry of green Wrote:(10-29-2018, 07:35 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(10-29-2018, 02:32 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Would all these legalities also apply to Juliette in the murders of all her neighbors and Nick's mom, since some, wet noodle wack-a-do keeps claiming how Adalind was responsible for his aunt death but Juliette was not to blame or responsible for all the murdered neighbors and his mom?
Probably not. There'd be charges, but they'd be different and lesser.
Adalind tried to kill Marie, then arranged a hit during which Marie died . That's attempted murder for the first try, aggravated murder (murder for hire) for the second. Penalty: 7 years 6 months minimum for the first attempt, life without parole or death for the second.
Juliette assisted with a kidnapping that ended in murders. But unless evidence can be found that she actually knew the murders would happen (should have known isn't enough), the most likely charge is felony murder (death which occurs during the commission of a felony). Penalty: 6 yrs 3 mos minimum.
However, Adalind was a criminal from the start, and acted with "premeditation" and "malice aforethought." Juliette was a full-fledged member of Team Scoobie who was inadvertently and unwillingly transformed into a hexenbiest. She went into a conspicuous downward emotional spiral with unstable behavior that radically altered her personality prior to her ultimate crime. Further complicating matters, an agency of the US govt took her and subjected her to unspecified mind altering treatments. So there was probably already a basis for a possible "qualifying mental disorder" defense, and then HW's abduction and brainwashing would probably result in all the charges being thrown out anyway.
Face, Juliette also attempted murder, she tried to kill Adalind in 4x17 and she tried to kill Nick in 4x22. She also attempted to force Nick to kill Monroe in 4x21. Juliette chose to go back to Nicks house after Kelly’s death and would have killed him if not for Trubel. Also what happened to Eve with Hw happened after the fact what relevance would it have to her season 4 crimes.
Also that’s your opinion she was a criminal priror to the show as we have no hint whatsoever she had a criminal record.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 10-29-2018
The start was episode 1. But do you really think Adalind's first criminal act ever was dressing up as a nurse and trying to murder someone? That'd be a big first step.
Everything Juliette did as a hexenbiest would have been presented by a defense as part of her loss of control. Not that it would ever get to that with HW behind the scenes.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - dicappatore - 10-30-2018
(10-29-2018, 07:35 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(10-29-2018, 02:32 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Would all these legalities also apply to Juliette in the murders of all her neighbors and Nick's mom, since some, wet noodle wack-a-do keeps claiming how Adalind was responsible for his aunt death but Juliette was not to blame or responsible for all the murdered neighbors and his mom?
Probably not. There'd be charges, but they'd be different and lesser.
Adalind tried to kill Marie, then arranged a hit during which Marie died . That's attempted murder for the first try, aggravated murder (murder for hire) for the second. Penalty: 7 years 6 months minimum for the first attempt, life without parole or death for the second.
Juliette assisted with a kidnapping that ended in murders. But unless evidence can be found that she actually knew the murders would happen (should have known isn't enough), the most likely charge is felony murder (death which occurs during the commission of a felony). Penalty: 6 yrs 3 mos minimum.
However, Adalind was a criminal from the start, and acted with "premeditation" and "malice aforethought." Juliette was a full-fledged member of Team Scoobie who was inadvertently and unwillingly transformed into a hexenbiest. She went into a conspicuous downward emotional spiral with unstable behavior that radically altered her personality prior to her ultimate crime. Further complicating matters, an agency of the US govt took her and subjected her to unspecified mind altering treatments. So there was probably already a basis for a possible "qualifying mental disorder" defense, and then HW's abduction and brainwashing would probably result in all the charges being thrown out anyway.
For a minute, I had my hopes for you. 1st, I was talking about what Juliette did before she was snatched by HW. Then you blew it by forgetting, the Hex defense could be also used by Adalind. She was also a successful professional lawyer, not some kind of street hoodlum.
Your biggest blunder was assuming all this Wesen existing ideology was out in the open for the world to see and prosecute according to a world of know Wesson existence for Juliette but not for Adalind..
The scenario in question started with Adalind and was set up in a world of a society not knowing about Wesen existence. You also excluded her complete history as citizen in mentioning her being a professional.
It was cool how you stuck to Adalind's prosecution in a world unaware of Wesen and include what we all saw on the screen. Yet you apply Juliette's actions including her as Eve and after HW brainwashing influence. Including her in a world that is well aware of the Wesen Community.
You also excluded what we saw her complete involvement from her pile of evidence. Nice try, but no cigar. I might be old, but nor senile.
Now, I dare you, reapply the same law and principle to both women before HW showed up and in a world that was unaware of Wesen existence with the jury able to see what we saw about both women, not just Adalind and not for Juliette. I dare you!.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMb8C5vqSUM
RE: Hexenbiestdom - Henry of green - 10-30-2018
(10-29-2018, 11:32 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: The start was episode 1. But do you really think Adalind's first criminal act ever was dressing up as a nurse and trying to murder someone? That'd be a big first step.
Everything Juliette did as a hexenbiest would have been presented by a defense as part of her loss of control. Not that it would ever get to that with HW behind the scenes.
Face, Adalind was certainly no saint probably a borderline sociopath before the series started, also she might have been up to the odd dodgy thing for Renard and her mother before the series started, however that doesn’t necessarily mean she was a known criminal, infact her own statements about her in her younger days before the series seem to go agianst your theory of her being a known criminal. Also she cleary wasn’t a very good assassin considering she failed to kill her target, infact Adalind has the least amount of kills of any of the main characters including Rosalee so cleary killing wasn’t her expertise.
Below are two examples of Adalind talking about her past before the series that don’t make her appear that criminaly experienced before the series.
Rosalee- Sort of a low point in my life.
No money, bad relationship.
Experimenting with too many things.
I wish I could just bury that entire part of my life.
You ever do anything like that when you were young that you regret?
Adalind- Not really.
I was kind of a nerd student.
I guess I wanted to prove to my mother that I was nothing like her, so I became a lawyer.
Rosalee- Oh.
Adalind- It's not like I do this kind of stuff every day.
You know, I was a perfectly happy lawyer just minding my own business before Nick's aunt came to town.
Rosalee-
I really doubt his aunt is responsible for everything you’ve done,
Adalind -I’m not saying that.
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s04e20
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s05e12
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=grimm&episode=s05e12
Face- your logic about Juliette losing control as defense makes no since considering half the wesen Nick has locked up on the show could have that as their defense, yet the majority of them appeared to get long prison sentences, before you state but Juliette wasn’t naturally a Wesen/ Hexenbiest and couldn’t control herself does that mean any teenage wesen should also be let off their crimes considering they can’t control themselves, as most wesen are born human and don’t start woging until in their teenage years like Monroe and Rosalee.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 10-30-2018
I don't think the hex defense would work for Adalind. She was a hexenbiest her entire life and didn't have it suddenly dumped on her, and it was clear in episode 1 that she wasn't falling apart emotionally at the time she carried out Renard's instructions to kill Marie. The fact that she was maintaining a legal career at the same time she was acting as Renard's criminal vassal is evidence of that and would work against her, not for her.
In Juliette's case, she was conspicuously going to pieces at the time she committed her various criminal acts. The charges and probable defense I described for her would be the same if there was no hexenbiest and she had developed some sort of brain tumor or other disease that resulted in a sudden and extreme personality shift.
All of the above would be applicable whether the world knew about wesen or not, assuming that the world was not carrying out some genocidal kill wesen on sight pogrom, in which case charges for either Adalind or Juliette would become academic.
The big fly in the ointment is HW. In a world where wesen were known, would they still be there, not wanting BC and their war against it to become public knowledge, and would they still have abducted Juliette and turned her into Eve? If no, figure on someone defending Juliette in court trying the mental condition argument; if yes, figure on Juliette still disappearing before she can be arrested and charged.
I was trying to give you all the options for Juliette, 6 years 3 months for felony murder if a jury doesn't buy the mental condition defense or the feds saving her from arrest by abducting her and brainwashing her into Eve. But either way there's no free pass for her. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
(10-30-2018, 04:34 AM)Henry of green Wrote: does that mean any teenage wesen should also be let off their crimes considering they can’t control themselves, as most wesen are born human and don’t start woging until in their teenage years like Monroe and Rosalee.
Based on what I see in the real world, I tend to believe that the worst fears expressed by those panicked wesen in the episode about the bank robbers would come to pass and wesen would be hunted down and exterminated if their existence became known, but assuming for a moment that that didn't happen, I think wesen kids would still be segregated into secure "special needs" schools until they had transitioned and demonstrated their ability to control themselves. And then no, being an out of control wesen would not be a defense for them, just a reason for society to lock them up.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - brandon - 10-30-2018
I think Adalind and her friends were accepted into the firm because they were "Hexenbiest",apart from that with such a good qualification they finished.
Adalind knew how to follow orders while Juliette did it out of pure evil.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 10-30-2018
It was strongly implied, if not stated outright, that the firm was run by wesen who used the hexenbiests' abilities to improperly influence the outcome of many of their dealings. IOW, crooked lawyers. Or is saying "crooked lawyers" just being repetitive?
RE: Hexenbiestdom - dicappatore - 10-30-2018
(10-30-2018, 05:00 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: I don't think the hex defense would work for Adalind. She was a hexenbiest her entire life and didn't have it suddenly dumped on her, and it was clear in episode 1 that she wasn't falling apart emotionally at the time she carried out Renard's instructions to kill Marie. The fact that she was maintaining a legal career at the same time she was acting as Renard's criminal vassal is evidence of that and would work against her, not for her.
In Juliette's case, she was conspicuously going to pieces at the time she committed her various criminal acts. The charges and probable defense I described for her would be the same if there was no hexenbiest and she had developed some sort of brain tumor or other disease that resulted in a sudden and extreme personality shift.
All of the above would be applicable whether the world knew about wesen or not, assuming that the world was not carrying out some genocidal kill wesen on sight pogrom, in which case charges for either Adalind or Juliette would become academic.
The big fly in the ointment is HW. In a world where wesen were known, would they still be there, not wanting BC and their war against it to become public knowledge, and would they still have abducted Juliette and turned her into Eve? If no, figure on someone defending Juliette in court trying the mental condition argument; if yes, figure on Juliette still disappearing before she can be arrested and charged.
I was trying to give you all the options for Juliette, 6 years 3 months for felony murder if a jury doesn't buy the mental condition defense or the feds saving her from arrest by abducting her and brainwashing her into Eve. But either way there's no free pass for her. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
(10-30-2018, 04:34 AM)Henry of green Wrote: does that mean any teenage wesen should also be let off their crimes considering they can’t control themselves, as most wesen are born human and don’t start woging until in their teenage years like Monroe and Rosalee.
Based on what I see in the real world, I tend to believe that the worst fears expressed by those panicked wesen in the episode about the bank robbers would come to pass and wesen would be hunted down and exterminated if their existence became known, but assuming for a moment that that didn't happen, I think wesen kids would still be segregated into secure "special needs" schools until they had transitioned and demonstrated their ability to control themselves. And then no, being an out of control wesen would not be a defense for them, just a reason for society to lock them up.
All I can say to you about you and your excuses for Juliette is what I told my required psych class professor way way back, years ago. Psychology or as in Juliette's case, Created Hexenbiests Syndrome. The study of the subject on hand, makes great science to study and explain human or Wesen behavior. It does not excuse it.
I don't make excuses for Adalind' bad behavior as an outside spectator. Too bad, the Juliette fans aren't capable to do the same and just accept the evil woman she became. Not my opinion but the facts of her creators.
(10-30-2018, 06:18 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: It was strongly implied, if not stated outright, that the firm was run by wesen who used the hexenbiests' abilities to improperly influence the outcome of many of their dealings. IOW, crooked lawyers. Or is saying "crooked lawyers" just being repetitive?
So, they were crooked as Hexenbiest, because they were born into it. Hex Juliette gets a pass? Well thats fair?
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 10-30-2018
Past histories of criminal activity vs first offenses, mental state, etc., often influence what charges get filed. Because charges are a messy balance of what someone did vs what the odds of conviction are. Ultimately, "fair" and "excuse" are whatever a lawyer can convince a jury to buy into. Actually, in most cases it's whatever a lawyer and prosecutor can bargain, since the vast majority of criminal charges end up as plea deals rather than courtroom trials.
If that bothers you, just ignore all my guesses about how things might turn out in the end and stick with the charges I cited. Those at least are pretty black and white in the criminal codes.