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+--- Thread: Hexenbiestdom (/Thread-Hexenbiestdom)
RE: Hexenbiestdom - Hell Rell - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 10:54 AM)irukandji Wrote: I didn't get the impression that Adalind went overseas to get her hexenbiest back in an effort to impress her mother. I've always viewed Adalind as being rather selfish. To me, she's always been about herself. I don't count her children in this because there are plenty of selfish people out there who continue to be selfish but still make great mothers.
As for Catherine, I'm not so sure she's the big bad witch in all of this.
Adalind didn't go overseas to impress her mother. Her mother was just of one of the biggest reasons why she felt worthless without the Hexenbiest. She was disowned right after she lost it so that damaged Adalind even further and had an influence on how important she thought having her biest spirit is.
Catherine and Renard were using her but they were still the two people she cared about most about in the world. Getting rejected by the both of them for not being a Hexenbiest made her that much more determined to get it back.
Whether Adalind is considered a good person or not now isn't really related my view on this. Diana and Kelly gave her a new priority and she thought being a Hexenbiest would be a detriment to the family she wanted to build. I don't expect Adalind to become some altruistic person for not wanting her biest back.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - irukandji - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 02:41 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(07-25-2018, 10:54 AM)irukandji Wrote: I didn't get the impression that Adalind went overseas to get her hexenbiest back in an effort to impress her mother. I've always viewed Adalind as being rather selfish. To me, she's always been about herself. I don't count her children in this because there are plenty of selfish people out there who continue to be selfish but still make great mothers.
As for Catherine, I'm not so sure she's the big bad witch in all of this.
Adalind didn't go overseas to impress her mother. Her mother was just of one of the biggest reasons why she felt worthless without the Hexenbiest. She was disowned right after she lost it so that damaged Adalind even further and had an influence on how important she thought having her biest spirit is.
Catherine and Renard were using her but they were still the two people she cared about most about in the world. Getting rejected by the both of them for not being a Hexenbiest made her that much more determined to get it back.
Whether Adalind is considered a good person or not now isn't really related my view on this. Diana and Kelly gave her a new priority and she thought being a Hexenbiest would be a detriment to the family she wanted to build. I don't expect Adalind to become some altruistic person for not wanting her biest back.
First of all, I didn't say she went overseas in an effort to impress her mother. I said I didn't get the impression she went overseas to impress her mother.
Secondly, I never saw and still don't see Adalind as viewing herself as worthless. I can't remember exactly what she said to Nick when he took her hexenbiest away, but I don't recall her saying anything about being worthless.
If she viewed herself as worthless, she wouldn't be going overseas to trade a child she views as valuable. You're saying she cared about Catherine and Renard. I don't see that either as she was willing to give up her child for a hexenbiest or worse yet, abort it if she didn't get her way. The child is related to them. If Adalind really cared for them as you state, she wouldn't think of trading or killing the child.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 02:59 PM)irukandji Wrote: I can't remember exactly what she said to Nick when he took her hexenbiest away, but I don't recall her saying anything about being worthless.
What have you done?
You killed me.
I'm nothing now.
I don't have any powers.
You've taken everything.
I'm just like everybody else.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - Hell Rell - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 02:59 PM)irukandji Wrote: First of all, I didn't say she went overseas in an effort to impress her mother. I said I didn't get the impression she went overseas to impress her mother.
Secondly, I never saw and still don't see Adalind as viewing herself as worthless. I can't remember exactly what she said to Nick when he took her hexenbiest away, but I don't recall her saying anything about being worthless.
If she viewed herself as worthless, she wouldn't be going overseas to trade a child she views as valuable. You're saying she cared about Catherine and Renard. I don't see that either as she was willing to give up her child for a hexenbiest or worse yet, abort it if she didn't get her way. The child is related to them. If Adalind really cared for them as you state, she wouldn't think of trading or killing the child.
Adalind didn't tell Nick she felt worthless but she did say he "killed her". She was visibly devastated and a broken person walking away from that fight and that was before she talked to Catherine and Renard.
Adalind wanted to trade the child to feel like her old self again. She was going to trade the valuable child so she could get her biest back and feel valued again herself. The child being valuable didn't make Adalind feel valuable.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying about Adalind caring about Catherine and Renard. She didn't plan on winning them back. They disowned her and Adalind actually had the awareness to not be submissive to them anymore. That doesn't mean their effect on her disappeared. They made her feel absolutely worthless without the Hexenbiest so she wanted her powers back to feel valuable again but it wasn't to get back in their good graces especially seeing that Catherine was already dead. I'm not attributing her relationships with them as the entire reason she wanted the biest back but they definitely contributed to how important she felt being a Hexenbiest was and how awful her life would be without it going forward.
The baby was a just a commodity to Adalind before she was born. She wasn't a real person worthy of her love when she planned on selling her. I guess you can say her maternal instinct kicked in once she was born.
(07-25-2018, 05:12 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: What have you done?
You killed me.
I'm nothing now.
I don't have any powers.
You've taken everything.
I'm just like everybody else.
I guess this pretty much sums it up. I went on this long diatribe and then I read this post. I could've saved myself a few minutes.
And as a preemptive strike, Adalind believing she's like everyone else back then was pretty much equivalent to her feeling worthless.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - irukandji - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 05:12 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: And as a preemptive strike, Adalind believing she's like everyone else back then was pretty much equivalent to her feeling worthless.
Adalind is all about Adalind. She's never going to say she's worthless because she doesn't see herself as worthless.
(07-25-2018, 05:12 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: You're misunderstanding what I'm saying about Adalind caring about Catherine and Renard. She didn't plan on winning them back. They disowned her and Adalind actually had the awareness to not be submissive to them anymore. That doesn't mean their effect on her disappeared. They made her feel absolutely worthless without the Hexenbiest so she wanted her powers back to feel valuable again but it wasn't to get back in their good graces especially seeing that Catherine was already dead. I'm not attributing her relationships with them as the entire reason she wanted the biest back but they definitely contributed to how important she felt being a Hexenbiest was and how awful her life would be without it going forward.
This sounds like a play for sympathy for the character. But in point of fact, she was given a job to do. She failed.
To me, this is a lot like adult Kelly strolling into Nick's house that fateful night with baby Diana in tow. It's apparent Kelly was thinking that nothing was wrong, and even if it was, she could handle it. Instead, she should have been on red alert and left Diana back at the ranch, safe from any potential harm.
Adalind went into the situation thinking that Nick was just going to hand the key over because Hank's life was at stake. She didn't even stop to figure that Nick might just fight back.
I have no doubt Adalind was shocked at the loss of her hexenbiest and I can understand why. It would be a trauma to lose something that's been a part of her since she was born. But I don't recall her taking responsibility for her actions and admitting the loss was her fault.
I get that you think Renard and Catherine contributed to Adalind feeling even more worthless by ostracizing her. However, I find this very similar to Nick ostracizing Juliette at the precinct. She didn't feel worthless, she was angry and wanted revenge and she exacted it. Adalind poisoned Juliette, causing difficulty for both Catherine and Renard. She wanted revenge and she exacted it.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - Hell Rell - 07-25-2018
(07-25-2018, 06:03 PM)irukandji Wrote: Adalind is all about Adalind. She's never going to say she's worthless because she doesn't see herself as worthless.
There's nothing more I can add to what I've already written so I'll leave this one alone.
(07-25-2018, 06:03 PM)irukandji Wrote: This sounds like a play for sympathy for the character. But in point of fact, she was given a job to do. She failed.
To me, this is a lot like adult Kelly strolling into Nick's house that fateful night with baby Diana in tow. It's apparent Kelly was thinking that nothing was wrong, and even if it was, she could handle it. Instead, she should have been on red alert and left Diana back at the ranch, safe from any potential harm.
Adalind went into the situation thinking that Nick was just going to hand the key over because Hank's life was at stake. She didn't even stop to figure that Nick might just fight back.
I have no doubt Adalind was shocked at the loss of her hexenbiest and I can understand why. It would be a trauma to lose something that's been a part of her since she was born. But I don't recall her taking responsibility for her actions and admitting the loss was her fault.
I get that you think Renard and Catherine contributed to Adalind feeling even more worthless by ostracizing her. However, I find this very similar to Nick ostracizing Juliette at the precinct. She didn't feel worthless, she was angry and wanted revenge and she exacted it. Adalind poisoned Juliette, causing difficulty for both Catherine and Renard. She wanted revenge and she exacted it.
It probably was a play for sympathy for the character. Adalind and the scene were played as sympathetic from the time she ingested Nick's blood to when she returned to Catherine and Renard. It was one of many plays of sympathy Adalind would receive throughout the series. She was getting them before hooking up with Nick.
You already have a good understanding of Adalind's mindset as evidenced in your post above. You're completely right in your assessment of what she was thinking going into her encounter with Nick to get the key.
Adalind also didn't take responsibility for her loss of the Hexenbiest. That wasn't one of her character traits back then. She felt like the victim when she got her biest taken away and she felt even worse when Catherine and Renard told her it was all her fault.
Adalind feeling worthless and wanting revenge aren't exclusive. We saw what she was capable of without her biest but she was still desperate to get it back. There was no Diana or Kelly at the time. Being a Hexenbiest was the only thing worthwhile for Adalind. She chose that over the $750,000 she was being offered for giving birth to a girl.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 07-25-2018
Catherine Schade was the template for the volatile, scheming hexenbiest personality described in the Grimm book and by Monroe and Rosalee (or maybe it was the other way around). The discussion of what hexenbiests were like was in connection to Catherine's visits to the spice shop. Catherine's concept of her daughter's worth was primarily based on how powerful she was as a hexenbiest and what she could do for Mom.
Adalind had a definite love-hate relationship with her mother. She credited mom with teaching her and allowed herself to be committed to becoming Renard's vassal in repayment of her mother's debt, and yet she later told Rosalee that she was a "nerd student" because she wanted to prove that she was nothing like her.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - dicappatore - 07-26-2018
(07-25-2018, 06:03 PM)irukandji Wrote: To me, this is a lot like adult Kelly strolling into Nick's house that fateful night with baby Diana in tow. It's apparent Kelly was thinking that nothing was wrong, and even if it was, she could handle it. Instead, she should have been on red alert and left Diana back at the ranch, safe from any potential harm.
And the BS just keeps pouring out of this contributor and the wonders why the ridicule and name calling keep pouring in. You have to love the amateurish attempt to sneak in a baseless opinion as a fact and then try to use it as a comparison as something that never took place.
Was one of the qualities or skill set for a Grimm to be clairvoyant? Nope.
Was Kelly a lone wolf Grimm or with scobies like Nick for her to leave Diana with trusted friends safely? Surely not the later.
But the lies just don’t end here:
Did this contributor miss the scene when her darling lying Juliette sends her an email stating that Nick was in danger?
Did this contributor miss her darling lying Juliette the part of the email claiming the house was safe and then went on to plan her demise with Ken and Verat?
And then the “piece de resistance:
Did this contributor also miss when her darling lying Juliette answered her phone call just as “adult Kelly strolling into Nick's house”, and stating the door was open and LIE about the house was safe with Ken and Verat waiting in the wings while all her neighboring homes had dead neighbors and Verat agents in their place?
These are just a few facts this contributor either forgot or just chooses to overlook, yet expects we do the same. Once confronted with the omissions, this same contributor will complain about being bullied and name calling instead of replying to the facts that contradict these omissions.
Now I see why this contributor loves this Juliette character so much. They both lie like a rug and then wonders about the lack of the seriousness and respect of the posted opinions.
Now we all have our opinions and some claim we also all have anal cavities and they all stink. In this case, the mouth or the fingers connected to the brain is one of the same. It must create a hell of a bad breath case.
One has to wonder why is someone so driven to prove a point that did not exist? Why watch a show named Grimm with the main character is a Grimm? Hate the Grimm characters so much and then opine on these forums with the idea to change what took place on the screen. Then expect the majority of the viewers to go along with these convoluted summations.
You wish to shut me up? Then reply to the posted facts instead of whining about being bullied. Explain how you can summarize "this is a lot like adult Kelly strolling into Nick's house that fateful night with baby Diana in tow." Is your blind bias even able to comprehend, as you claim, what took place for Kelly to just stroll in?
I DARE YOU!
RE: Hexenbiestdom - irukandji - 07-26-2018
(07-25-2018, 07:17 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Adalind feeling worthless and wanting revenge aren't exclusive. We saw what she was capable of without her biest but she was still desperate to get it back. There was no Diana or Kelly at the time. Being a Hexenbiest was the only thing worthwhile for Adalind. She chose that over the $750,000 she was being offered for giving birth to a girl.
Putting aside what Adalind told Rosalee in season 5, is it possible that the hexenbiest spirit is a sort of companion to Adalind's human side? I still don't think she feels worthless without it, but maybe there's a loneliness there that would eventually destroy her unless resolved?
(07-25-2018, 08:17 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Catherine Schade was the template for the volatile, scheming hexenbiest personality described in the Grimm book and by Monroe and Rosalee (or maybe it was the other way around). The discussion of what hexenbiests were like was in connection to Catherine's visits to the spice shop. Catherine's concept of her daughter's worth was primarily based on how powerful she was as a hexenbiest and what she could do for Mom.
Adalind had a definite love-hate relationship with her mother. She credited mom with teaching her and allowed herself to be committed to becoming Renard's vassal in repayment of her mother's debt, and yet she later told Rosalee that she was a "nerd student" because she wanted to prove that she was nothing like her.
Actually, Catherine shows herself to be something different than a standard witch. I've never heard of a hexenbiest being indebted to a zauerbiest before, especially since the hexenbiests appear to be more powerful and resourceful than their male counterparts. To complicate matters, both hexenbiests have romantic ties to the zauerbiest, which sets both of them apart from the norm.
RE: Hexenbiestdom - FaceInTheCrowd - 07-26-2018
(07-26-2018, 04:05 AM)irukandji Wrote: Actually, Catherine shows herself to be something different than a standard witch. I've never heard of a hexenbiest being indebted to a zauerbiest before, especially since the hexenbiests appear to be more powerful and resourceful than their male counterparts. To complicate matters, both hexenbiests have romantic ties to the zauerbiest, which sets both of them apart from the norm.
I always wondered about that "debt." I doubt it was just monetary; even with whatever Sean made off "tribute" from wesen criminals added to his police captain's salary he would still need help from his mother to buy a house in S03. My guess is that at some time in the past Sean provided Catherine with some sort of service, or Catherine committed some sort of offense again him that resulted in her owing service.
I have no idea what "the norm" is for hexenbiest/zauberbiest relations, except that the two pairs that we know of (Adalind's parents and Adalind and Sean) were not good at LTRs.