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+--- Thread: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like (/Thread-Are-grimms-needed-what-would-a-wesen-world-without-grimms-look-like)
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - Henry of green - 03-11-2018
(03-11-2018, 09:31 AM)irukandji Wrote:(03-11-2018, 09:17 AM)Henry of green Wrote:(03-11-2018, 07:59 AM)irukandji Wrote:(03-11-2018, 06:19 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Irk is mostly correct ,In Rome the recruitment of slaves into army as soldiers (volones) is only known on one occasion during the Punic war, I think. There were other occasions of great peril and disruption (during the civil wars of the late republic, and the Marcomannic war) when slaves were freed and enlisted directly into the army. This period is during the Roman republic era not the Roman Empire era.
Otherwise slaves would not have fought as soldiers - free status was a requisite of military service, and Trajan instructed his governor Pliny to execute any slave trying to enlist illegally.
There were slaves who served the soldiers - they were called calones - but they performed menial tasks: gathering firewood, cleaning, perhaps cooking. It was apparently quite normal for soldiers to have several slaves - the future St Martin of Tours was praised for only keeping one slave to attend him when he served in the Scholae. Josephus (I think) mentions that these slaves spent so long in a military environment that they could act as quite effective soldiers themselves if armed, but in practice this would have been a rare and desperate expedient.
There is, in any case, no possibility of slaves serving in the army of Constantine, unless they somehow managed to conceal their origins effectively enough to pass as freeborn.
There are some things in the above that weren't pointed out. The forcible enlistment of slaves into the roman army occurred around 216 BC, and is documented in the battle of Canaae. Constantine's rule did not occur until 306 AD. Did roman tribunes continue to forcibly draft slaves into the army for hundreds of years? While not historically documented, it seems logical that once Rome used this tactic, it would continue to be employed in times of emergency.
(03-10-2018, 02:43 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: The original role of grimms was that of overseer. Royalty, as early as ancient Rome, used wesen as soldiers and managed them with Grimms.
During those times where Roman citizens freely enlisted into the army, it would be logical to assume wesen were among those citizens. It makes me wonder why Rome would have had to use grimms to oversee them. They would not act any differently than the human citizens who fought beside them.
Slaves I can understand, even the use of grimm slaves to manage enslaved wesens who were forced to serve. They might be unruly and possibly disobedient. But then, the roman army had tactics in place (like the murder of every 10th man) as a strong reminder that resistance is futile.
Irk, The battle of canaae took place during the sedcond Punic war, I know the Constantine period didn’t occur until 300 Ad which is why I stated above it took place during the Roman Empire period where as the Punic wars/ the battle of canaae took place during the Roman republic era long before Rome was really an empire. The only reason Rome drafted slaves during the Punic war period is beacuse they were desperate beacuse Hannibal was causing havoc on Rome’s own soil, Hannibal was the greatest terror the Roman republic ever faced.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae
Let it go, henry.
Let what go why do you have to take things personally. I merely proved my point.
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - irukandji - 03-11-2018
(03-11-2018, 09:33 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Let what go why do you have to take things personally. I merely proved my point.
Maybe because of derogatory statements like this:
"Irk is mostly correct......"
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - New Guy - 03-11-2018
(03-10-2018, 06:55 PM)irukandji Wrote:Iruk,(03-10-2018, 02:46 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Iruk,
Your post seems to indicate Rolek lived a "relatively normal life." As I recall, Roleck did not enjoy being a Grimm, however IMO he did not live a normal life. From (3.21, "The Inheritance"):
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Rolek_Porter
Quote:Rolek told his son, Josh, to find and bring Nick Burkhardt to him, so that he might give all of his Grimm artifacts to him before he died. Shortly after his son came back without Nick, a Verrat Ahnenerbe Hundjäger attacked Josh, and Rolek killed the intruder by impaling him with a sword.I doubt the average (normal) Kehrseite if attacked by a Hundjäger could pull out a sword and kill it. Note that both his father an grandfather were also Grimms. His son, Josh, did not seem to aspire to being Grimm, but did seem attracted to Trubel. Perhaps she was able to help him embrace his Grimm heritage?
N G
Hi New Guy-
You're talking about 1 attack on Rolek. What age did he make it to before he died? 60 years old? 65 years old? Do you really think the odds of one documented attack during that time preclude living a normal life? I don't.
Both Nick and Rolek were attacked by Wesen attempting to kill them and steal their Grimm key(s). In the 5.5 years of Grimm, Nick was attacked multiple times. Rolek had been responsible to protect his key for considerably more years. Do you actually believe that was the first and only attack? Trubel had no keys but had been attacked multiple times before she met Nick. Do you believe Rolek was never attacked just for being Grimm? The odds that Rolek was only attacked once are zero. Based on his skill at killing the Hundjäger, and the frequency of attacks on Nick and Trubel it is much more likely he had been attacked by wesen and prevailed at least once per year. Nick was 29 when he saw his first wesen (Adalind) and was first attacked. If Rolek was 60 at death he likely encountered over 30 wesen including some attempts on his life. G&K did not provide hard evidence, however I doubt they would concur that Rolek only had one wesen encounter. LOL
N G
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - dicappatore - 03-12-2018
I am curious of what is the purpose of the argument made about how many Wesen Rolek killed or attacked. if he killed one or 1000, not knowing the circumstances of the kills? What does it prove. IMO, Rolek's character served to get a second key to Nick and enhance more books and weapons to his collection. Also, Josh can become a Grimm in a future, possible spin-off series with Trubel. Remember, Josh is a lot younger than when Nick gets his Grimm. The Josh we got to know was not a Grimm but who knows what can happen years later. Look how old Nick was when he becomes one.
The other fallacy is all this talk about Romans using slaves as soldiers and the Spartacus theory. FYI, Spartacus had an army of 100,000 plus. The fallacy about his army was that it was a Gladiator Army. In actuality, most of it was composed of poorly trained, in haste, domestic slaves. This is what happens when some get their history from Hollywood. The Romans were able to defeat other well trained and equipped armies, let alone a slave army.
Being born from an area not too far from the area where Spartacus was finally defeated in an all out battle against the Roman Army. Prior to this battle is was all about a cat and mouse game with small battles, between them. There is a book written by a local history professor about the town I was born in, which is in the same vicinity of Spartacus final battle.
If you look up the village "Senerchia" in Wikipedia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senerchia
This is the town the professor is from. On this page there is a reference to "Spartacus". It mentioned the town I was born in, Olivet Citra, but grew up in another near-by town, Quaglietta, which is what the book is about.
The town I lived in dates back to the 1100 or 1200's. According to this local history professor, the town I am from, is down valley from where the final battle took place, hence, why this is mentioned in the book. According to his research, that final battle was another one of these battles where one side is decimated by the other side loosing very few in numbers.
According to his research, most of those slaves were not gladiators but domestic slaves, including lots of women. As for the few gladiators, they might have been excellent fighters but what made the Roman Legions so powerful was their equipment, tactics and formations they practiced. Their formations were lethal based on tactics and enhanced by their fighting equipment (armor, artillery) not just fighting talents
In that final battle, these factors resulted in great discrepancies between the casualties from both sides. This whole idea of vast slave armies during the Roman area is just one big BS. Just more opinions being presented as facts. Most Roman slaves were far from being gladiators. Most of them were domestic slaves and not trained in fighting skills.
Ask yourself, if you owned slaves against their will, would you have them trained in fighting skills? This idea is laughable. Most slaves were domestic slaves, farmers, cooks, servers, etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkgjiCKHvoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iz1_UwD2Fw
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - eric - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 04:35 AM)dicappatore Wrote: I am curious of what is the purpose of the argument made about how many Wesen Rolek killed or attacked. if he killed one or 1000, not knowing the circumstances of the kills? What does it prove. IMO, Rolek's character served to get a second key to Nick and enhance more books and weapons to his collection. Also, Josh can become a Grimm in a future, possible spin-off series with Trubel. Remember, Josh is a lot younger than when Nick gets his Grimm. The Josh we got to know was not a Grimm but who knows what can happen years later. Look how old Nick was when he becomes one.Nice to hear from someone who knows their history.
The other fallacy is all this talk about Romans using slaves as soldiers and the Spartacus theory. FYI, Spartacus had an army of 100,000 plus. The fallacy about his army was that it was a Gladiator Army. In actuality, most of it was composed of poorly trained, in haste, domestic slaves. This is what happens when some get their history from Hollywood. The Romans were able to defeat other well trained and equipped armies, let alone a slave army.
Being born from an area not too far from the area where Spartacus was finally defeated in an all out battle against the Roman Army. Prior to this battle is was all about a cat and mouse game with small battles, between them. There is a book written by a local history professor about the town I was born in, which is in the same vicinity of Spartacus final battle.
If you look up the village "Senerchia" in Wikipedia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senerchia
This is the town the professor is from. On this page there is a reference to "Spartacus". It mentioned the town I was born in, Olivet Citra, but grew up in another near-by town, Quaglietta, which is what the book is about.
The town I lived in dates back to the 1100 or 1200's. According to this local history professor, the town I am from, is down valley from where the final battle took place, hence, why this is mentioned in the book. According to his research, that final battle was another one of these battles where one side is decimated by the other side loosing very few in numbers.
According to his research, most of those slaves were not gladiators but domestic slaves, including lots of women. As for the few gladiators, they might have been excellent fighters but what made the Roman Legions so powerful was their equipment, tactics and formations they practiced. Their formations were lethal based on tactics and enhanced by their fighting equipment (armor, artillery) not just fighting talents
In that final battle, these factors resulted in great discrepancies between the casualties from both sides. This whole idea of vast slave armies during the Roman area is just one big BS. Just more opinions being presented as facts. Most Roman slaves were far from being gladiators. Most of them were domestic slaves and not trained in fighting skills.
Ask yourself, if you owned slaves against their will, would you have them trained in fighting skills? This idea is laughable. Most slaves were domestic slaves, farmers, cooks, servers, etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkgjiCKHvoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iz1_UwD2Fw
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-12-2018
Personally I think the show failed to prove Grimm is essential for the balance humans and wesen.
Before Nick found out he was a grimm, I have the impression Portland had a normal life with some level of violence and with some level of unsolved crimes. Nick was probably able to increase the number of solved crimes (the wesen ones), but did it mean the violence on Portland decreased? Maybe it was the opposite if we consider the royals actions on Portland because of Nick.
We can’t also say a grimm is necessary as somekind of wesen police (or in the police force of any city) because wesen have the council with its own method of controlling the wesen. It was showed in the series. My point is that without grimm, the world would find another way to deal wesen (or maybe humans and wesen would have killed each other in the past and one of them wouldn’t exist anymore).
Unless we consider the final Z plot. In this plot only a grimm could have won the battle (actually three grimms
).But if we ask: Is a grimm usefull in the world? Then I think a grimm can be very usefull and it was also showed in the series. The council used Nick help some times, for example. Even some wesen community used Nick’s help against other types of wesen.
Just as an example, I didn’t like all the BC versus HW plot. But since this plot was in the show, I think that is kind of situation where a grimm is more useful. I mean… I think Nick would be more useful as a HW soldier than a police officer. But the show was about police officer grimm. So that is how things happened in the series.
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - dicappatore - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Personally I think the show failed to prove Grimm is essential for the balance humans and wesen.
Before Nick found out he was a grimm, I have the impression Portland had a normal life with some level of violence and with some level of unsolved crimes. Nick was probably able to increase the number of solved crimes (the wesen ones), but did it mean the violence on Portland decreased? Maybe it was the opposite if we consider the royals actions on Portland because of Nick.
We can’t also say a grimm is necessary as somekind of wesen police (or in the police force of any city) because wesen have the council with its own method of controlling the wesen. It was showed in the series. My point is that without grimm, the world would find another way to deal wesen (or maybe humans and wesen would have killed each other in the past and one of them wouldn’t exist anymore).
Unless we consider the final Z plot. In this plot only a grimm could have won the battle (actually three grimms
But if we ask: Is a grimm usefull in the world? Then I think a grimm can be very usefull and it was also showed in the series. The council used Nick help some times, for example. Even some wesen community used Nick’s help against other types of wesen.
Just as an example, I didn’t like all the BC versus HW plot. But since this plot was in the show, I think that is kind of situation where a grimm is more useful. I mean… I think Nick would be more useful as a HW soldier than a police officer. But the show was about police officer grimm. So that is how things happened in the series.
Just as a reminder. when Aunt Marie was telling Nick of his upcoming epiphany, she did mention that he was one of the last Grimm. If the show failed to prove if Grimms were essential for the balance of humans and Wesen, I think you missed the point. In the end, in my opinion, this was a very convoluted love story with remnants of the "Brothers Grimm" as the backdrop applied to current times mixed in with a police drama setting.
Besides the love story arcs between the main characters, including lonely Wu, whom had an episode with past love interests. I am excluding the S6, E7, "Blind Love", for obvious reasons. If you can review the 123 episodes, you will notice, the majority of them involve love interest between the WoW characters of those particular episodes. Were there murders, physical and mental abuse situations, robberies and other crimes? Yes, yes, yes and yes.
In the end, these were more stories about romantic relationships and how they were presented with a law and order backdrop complicated with Wesen and Grimm stirring the plot. Maybe I should start a thread about this whole idea of what was this show about. Law and Order, Monsters, Science Fiction, Fairy Tales, something else or all the above.
I wont since, in my opinion, once you sort it all out, it was about various love stories including the main character's arcs. It would be interesting how many were not and I will stick to my guns. I believe the majority of the WoW episodes involved some type of romantic relationships.
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - irukandji - 03-13-2018
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1520866963' Wrote: Personally I think the show failed to prove Grimm is essential for the balance humans and wesen.
Agree.
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1520866963' Wrote: Before Nick found out he was a grimm, I have the impression Portland had a normal life with some level of violence and with some level of unsolved crimes.
Agree.
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1520866963' Wrote: Nick was probably able to increase the number of solved crimes (the wesen ones), but did it mean the violence on Portland decreased? Maybe it was the opposite if we consider the royals actions on Portland because of Nick.
I would say it may have increased, if one considers the crimes Adalind and Renard committed. Nick himself was a dirty cop and committed crimes. Add in Monroe, Kelly, Rosalee, Hank, Wu, Juliette and Bud.
The other thing to consider is word of mouth. Wesen such as Monroe and Bud didn't keep quiet about their knowledge of Nick the grimm. As Nick's fame grows, does crime in Portland grow right along with it?
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1520866963' Wrote: We can’t also say a grimm is necessary as somekind of wesen police (or in the police force of any city) because wesen have the council with its own method of controlling the wesen. It was showed in the series. My point is that without grimm, the world would find another way to deal wesen (or maybe humans and wesen would have killed each other in the past and one of them wouldn’t exist anymore).
Or most wesen would have dealt with the issue by simply assimilating into society. The few troublesome ones, along with their human counterparts would be a small fraction of the population and so, a fraction of them would be brought to justice. I don't believe there are that many wesen out there who are continually getting away with murder.
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1520866963' Wrote: But if we ask: Is a grimm usefull in the world?
Like anyone, they can make themselves useful. I think there are probably good grimm policemen out there who don't have to resort to dirty tactics in order to serve the public. We also have a grimm who felt he could not be useful to the world as a grimm. That person was Rolek.
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-13-2018
(03-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodriguesdateline='1520866963' Wrote: But if we ask: Is a grimm usefull in the world?
Like anyone, they can make themselves useful. I think there are probably good grimm policemen out there who don't have to resort to dirty tactics in order to serve the public. We also have a grimm who felt he could not be useful to the world as a grimm. That person was Rolek.
[/quote]
Just a comment here. A Grimm that doesn't act as a Grimm is just a normal human. Like Rolek, he maybe a useful person but not a useful grimm.
For this question to make sense, it is the Grimm must find a way to be useful as a Grimm. In another words, the Grimm must find a way to be useful using what he has as different from a normal human.
RE: Are grimms needed what would a wesen world without grimms look like - Hell Rell - 03-13-2018
The Wesen Council may seem adequate on their own but this is just another contradiction I see in the series. How powerful were they actually since people here are judging Grimms by what we saw in the show? The council seemed like more of a show-not-tell thing on just how scary they actually were.
For instance, how many people were connected to the council? They were wiped out pretty easily. All it took was one meeting in a room to kill all of them. It wasn't like Hydra infiltrating Shield, which took them decades to do, and even then Shield was never gone. They just stayed under the radar until they were ready to strike back and regain the public's trust. The WC, like HW and BC but even moreso, never lived up to the hype. I have an easier time believing Grimms were more of a deterrent for local wesen than the WC. It's not like the WC could be everywhere at once judging by their small circle.