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+--- Thread: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? (/Thread-Is-Adalind-is-unfairly-judged-by-the-Fandom)
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - New Guy - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 03:28 PM)dicappatore Wrote:Hi Dicap,(08-26-2017, 11:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: I recall the scene with Nick and Juliette driving to the wedding:
Quote:In the car, Nick tells Juliette she looks beautiful and she quietly thanks him. He asks her if she is okay, and she says she doesn't know. Nick tells her she seemed pretty okay "not that long ago." She asks him why her negligee was on the floor, and he smiles and says, "I think that's just pretty much where it fell." Juliette asks him when, and he tells her she must be joking, but she sternly says she isn't. Nick asks her if he was "that bad," and she tells him to just tell her what's going on, but he says he doesn't know what she is talking about. She says she's talking about how her negligee was scrunched up on the floor and the bed was messed up when she got home. Nick says, "Yeah, I didn't do that by myself," and Juliette asks who he did it with then. Nick is confused and tells her when he came home, she was wearing the negligee. Juliette asks how stupid he thinks she is because she was gone getting her hair done. Juliette says she can't believe he would do something like that in their home and bed. Nick tells her, "This isn't funny anymore," and she says she would make him pull over so she could get out if they weren't going to Monroe and Rosalee's wedding. Nick says he was in bed with her and that they had sex, but she loudly says, "We didn't!" Nick says it was someone who looked and sounded just like her, and Juliette repeats that it wasn't her. Nick asks who else could it have been, causing Juliette to pause for a second before she realizes that Adalind called earlier and knew she wasn't going to be home. Both get worried looks, and Juliette says she's going to be sick.It makes Juliette sick that Nick got tricked by Adalind. Then later she fornicates Renard and Kenneth. What does she use as her moral compass?
N G
IMO that’s an easy answer. I have posted a few times how we get small bits of information on Juliette’s promiscuous past throughout the seasons. Her reveal of her grandmother warning her not to stay out late with boys with cars and back seats. Her description, in the supermarket, of her previous boyfriend. Her College roommate disclosure of Juliette’s multiple suitors in their college dorm.
When she becomes a Hex, it released her true persona that was suppressed. We end up seeing the licentious Juliette and her previous immoral compass come back out.
If you are saying Juliette was faking it to Nick that she had virtue, then I agree. She was playing him for a fool to get free rent and impress her friends with her straight arrow stud muffin.
Recall how smooth she was as a bar fly? She had lots of practice?
N G
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - brandon - 08-26-2017
She' s crazy.
Bursting into the precint to threaten to Adalind and baby.
Being in the cell never said anything to Nick about the relationship.
Juliette could not wait for he to go with She, because she never put anything on her part to join them.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - dicappatore - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 04:00 PM)New Guy Wrote:(08-26-2017, 03:28 PM)dicappatore Wrote:Hi Dicap,(08-26-2017, 11:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: I recall the scene with Nick and Juliette driving to the wedding:
Quote:In the car, Nick tells Juliette she looks beautiful and she quietly thanks him. He asks her if she is okay, and she says she doesn't know. Nick tells her she seemed pretty okay "not that long ago." She asks him why her negligee was on the floor, and he smiles and says, "I think that's just pretty much where it fell." Juliette asks him when, and he tells her she must be joking, but she sternly says she isn't. Nick asks her if he was "that bad," and she tells him to just tell her what's going on, but he says he doesn't know what she is talking about. She says she's talking about how her negligee was scrunched up on the floor and the bed was messed up when she got home. Nick says, "Yeah, I didn't do that by myself," and Juliette asks who he did it with then. Nick is confused and tells her when he came home, she was wearing the negligee. Juliette asks how stupid he thinks she is because she was gone getting her hair done. Juliette says she can't believe he would do something like that in their home and bed. Nick tells her, "This isn't funny anymore," and she says she would make him pull over so she could get out if they weren't going to Monroe and Rosalee's wedding. Nick says he was in bed with her and that they had sex, but she loudly says, "We didn't!" Nick says it was someone who looked and sounded just like her, and Juliette repeats that it wasn't her. Nick asks who else could it have been, causing Juliette to pause for a second before she realizes that Adalind called earlier and knew she wasn't going to be home. Both get worried looks, and Juliette says she's going to be sick.It makes Juliette sick that Nick got tricked by Adalind. Then later she fornicates Renard and Kenneth. What does she use as her moral compass?
N G
IMO that’s an easy answer. I have posted a few times how we get small bits of information on Juliette’s promiscuous past throughout the seasons. Her reveal of her grandmother warning her not to stay out late with boys with cars and back seats. Her description, in the supermarket, of her previous boyfriend. Her College roommate disclosure of Juliette’s multiple suitors in their college dorm.
When she becomes a Hex, it released her true persona that was suppressed. We end up seeing the licentious Juliette and her previous immoral compass come back out.
If you are saying Juliette was faking it to Nick that she had virtue, then I agree. She was playing him for a fool to get free rent and impress her friends with her straight arrow stud muffin.
Recall how smooth she was as a bar fly? She had lots of practice?
N G
Not only that behavior as a bar fly. During season 2 after coming out of her coma, behaving as a single gal without the memories of Nick to hold her back. She was acting pretty loose.
Do you recall, when she is out with a few girlfriends having cocktails, how she was ridiculing Nick with sarcasm asking him, if she needed to check with him next time she wanted to go out. In another scene, she is with another girlfriend having coffee and brags about having feelings for another man, her girlfriend’s reaction wasn’t shocked but nonchalant about a secret lover.
The spell Adalind cat placed on her might have made her forget about Nick but it did not add to her personality. Once the burden of Nick’s memories was removed, the real Juliette came out. Eventually, after her various trysts with Renard, her infatuation was remedied with the cleansing ritual and her returning memories of Nick started to clamp down on her true personality.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - Robyn - 08-27-2017
Quote:I don't think Robyn was trying to say that should be liked by virtue of being bad guys. I think she was just saying that they were fascinating and held her attention in a way that Nick and the gang failed to do. She found them more nuanced and complex. Good bad guys can provide a lot to a show. Besides, I'll take a good bad guy over a bad good guy any day.Thank you, Hell Rell, for the additional clarification, that’s exactly what I meant.
Bart, the topic of your thread asks the question “Is Adalind unfairly judged by the Fandom?” Did you mean based on the writers’ interpretation of the predetermined bad-guy character or a moral judgment about the character who was created to be a villain for the central character/hero to defeat, or something else?
Quote:It makes Juliette sick that Nick got tricked by Adalind. Then later she fornicates Renard and Kenneth. What does she use as her moral compass?Nick and Juliette were in a relationship, and Juliette considered Adalind as their enemy who tricked Nick. Nick and Juliette weren’t in a relationship when she had sex with Renard and Kenneth. They had become enemies much like Nick and Adalind were.
It amazes me that so much focus is directed at Juliette’s immorality because she ‘cheated’ on Nick and so little on her helping to steal someone’s child - twice. This sounds to be more about what’s best for Nick rather than Juliette’s immoral behavior. All the characters have had sex outside of marriage and outside committed relationships. Juliette tricking Rachael into believing she was Renard is the same as Adalind tricking Nick. One did it for intel. One did it to find her stolen baby. The one seeking intel was condoned by the good guys. The one seeking her stolen baby was condemned by the good guys. It appears that morality was absent long before Juliette embraced her wild side.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - dicappatore - 08-27-2017
(08-27-2017, 06:19 AM)Robyn Wrote: It amazes me that so much focus is directed at Juliette’s immorality because she ‘cheated’ on Nick and so little on her helping to steal someone’s child - twice. This sounds to be more about what’s best for Nick rather than Juliette’s immoral behavior. All the characters have had sex outside of marriage and outside committed relationships. Juliette tricking Rachael into believing she was Renard is the same as Adalind tricking Nick. One did it for intel. One did it to find her stolen baby. The one seeking intel was condoned by the good guys. The one seeking her stolen baby was condemned by the good guys. It appears that morality was absent long before Juliette embraced her wild side.
What amazes me is your biased interpretation of the whole situation. Who did Nick have sex with outside their relationship? He had sex with Adalind masquerading as Juliette. He had a smooch of two with a Muse. And Ariel had him almost in her. If you call that cheating, then what is your assessment of Juliette’s actions for a whole season after her coming out of her coma?
If Juliette, as you keep claiming with a few others, was out of a relationship with Nick?
She wasn't showing it when he went to visit her in her cell.
She wasn’t showing it when she confronted them in the police station.
She wasn’t showing it when she sent the email to trap his mother after she burned down the trailer.
She wasn’t showing it when she finds out he is still alive and instead of flying off with the royals she goes back to the house to kill him.
Robyn, to me, you seem to be more in-tune with your wits than some of the others pro-Juliette posters. But do you really think, just because she left the house she was living in for 5 years, because Nick slept on the couch for one night? She had no issues for him to sleep on that same couch while she was playing tonsil hockey with Renard in the spice shop, in her door step and all over that same house.
Yet we are to believe she was out of her relationship just because she walked out of the house? Ever hear the term, “Actions speak louder than words”?
Her actions were not signs of a relationship she was done with. She might have been out of the physical house relationship, but in her mind, she was still emotional attached to that relationship. If she was done with Nick, she would have moved on. She had a great profession to fall back on. In her mind, they were still in the relationship and she cheated on Nick. if it was done for spite, then I rest my case!
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - irukandji - 08-27-2017
(08-26-2017, 03:42 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I don't think anyone is supposed to like the bad guys, per se, but a fascinating character is a fascinating character no matter where their interests align.
True. What I think bart is asking goes beyond the fascinating or evil aspects of the character and into the viewership. Adalind is (or shall I was, before Nick got a hold of her) a fascinating character. But in my own personal views, I still see her as Marie's murderer. Because of that and other things she's done as a hexenbiest, I don't see her crimes as erased because she gave birth to Kelly and loves Nick.
I think what bart's asking is, is it unfair for fans to continue to judge Adalind on her past?
In my opinion, fans cannot be judged for criticizing Adalind's past deeds any more than fans can be judged for complimenting her as a great character because of the present.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - Robyn - 08-27-2017
(08-27-2017, 07:23 AM)dicappatore Wrote: What amazes me is your biased interpretation of the whole situation... Robyn, to me, you seem to be more in-tune with your wits than some of the others pro-Juliette posters...I don’t understand this overblown response to a character doing something wrong that brings everything the character has ever done into the mix. Juliette was the victim of two spells while attracted to Renard. She wasn’t in control of her actions anymore than Hank and Nick were with Adalind. Whatever happened between Juliette and Renard as a result of those two spells has nothing to do with Juliette’s behavior after becoming a Hexenbiest.
Any yes, the relationship was over as far as Juliette was concerned. Nick was the one who refused to accept it. Which is fine if Nick wants to fight for the relationship until the bitter end, but Juliette isn’t obligated to remain in a relationship because it’s what Nick wants. Juliette had sex with Kenneth in the bed she shared with Nick because she was angry, hated him, and knew it would hurt him and add emotional stress that would further throw him off his game. She wasn’t cheating because she’d already made it clear that there wasn’t a relationship to cheat on. Juliette had moved on at that point. Instead of relocating and finding another job as a veterinarian, she joined Nick’s enemies knowing it could result in Nick’s, his mother’s, and her former friend’s demise.
Not a stellar moment for the moral compass, but unless we are to only look at devious acts committed against Nick and his people, Juliette’s moral compass was no more compromised when joining the Royals than when she participated in stealing the baby from Adalind. The only difference in those two events is that the Grimms spearheaded the first hideous act of selfishness and supremacy and the Royals spearheaded the second hideous act of selfishness and supremacy. A working compass always points north, regardless of who holding it.
Nick… Adalind declared her love and immense fear that Nick might not survive his trip to Germany. Nick told Monroe twice that he didn’t know how he felt about Adalind, but that didn’t stop him from having sex with a woman obviously in love with him. Other than living together for protection, shelter, and co parenting, Nick and Adalind weren’t in a relationship - least not to Nick. That pesky moral compass is going to point true north whether Nick or Juliette is holding it. Juliette wasn’t pretending to be in a relationship with anyone when she bedded Kenneth. At the very least, Nick allowed Adalind to believe he might feel the same way. A man of character would have stopped the minute Adalind said she loved him if he didn’t believe he could return those feelings.
Agreeing with you is not a litmus test for a person having their wits. I am not pro or anti any character. I simply call them like I see them whether it’s the designated central character/hero/leading man, a designated antagonist, or a love interest gone sour. Each situation should be judged on it’s individual conditions without sway of the central character’s benefit.
The thread is about how the fandom judges Adalind, not another Juliette is forever damned. Adalind didn’t feel an ounce of regret over what she’d done to Nick and his friends until after wanting a relationship with Nick and to be accepted into his group of friends. She wanted to be with Renard once she and Diana were brought to Portland. Then hated Renard for giving their daughter to Kelly, yet loved Nick despite him and his friends stealing her baby. Adalind worked against Nick when she didn’t love him and was loyal to Nick when she did. Juliette was loyal to Nick when she loved him and wasn’t when she didn’t. There’s really no defining difference in his relationships with the two women other than love happened first in one situation and second in the other.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - rpmaluki - 08-27-2017
I don't think she wanted to be with Renard after she had Diana. She had intended to go with Kelly wherever the Resistance sent them. It was after discovering Kelly was Nick's mother that she ran to Renard's expecting him to at least keep her safe from the two Grimms and his friends.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - Robyn - 08-27-2017
Characters judged only by their previous or current actions can’t experience meaningful evolution. It's taking their entire journey into account that produces an objective assessment. Unless the characters progressed, regressed, and eventually adapted to life-changing experiences, six years of Grimm would be a continual loop of the first season. If the characters remained as introduced, they would be even more one-dimensional than the show presented them to be.
Adalind would have murdered Marie had Nick not thwarted her attempt. Juliette working with the Royals directly contributed to Kelly’s death. That one was successful and the other failed doesn’t make either more or less criminal and immoral. But unless the justice system is part of the process, and it’s not on Grimm, neither woman did anything that can’t eventually be forgiven without adequate punishment. Because neither act was compelled solely by it’s own volition, both were marred with extenuating and uncontainable circumstances, just as the Grimm gang was compelled to steal Adalind’s baby because of extenuating and uncontainable circumstances - to prevent an immediate attack by the Royals.
I think Adalind has definitely been unfairly judged, and I think Juliette has been equally unfairly judged. And I offer up for comparison the amount of time we have spent on the evil deeds of Adalind and Juliette compared to Renard who has consistently plotted behind the scenes for his personal benefit and to the detriment of others. Maybe it’s not as much about evil deeds as it is that both women were Nick’s love interest at one time or another and Renard wasn’t.
Much like Adalind signed a contract in blood with Stefania, maybe exchanging bodily fluids with Nick equates to an everlasting contract of loyalty to the Grimm. *grin*
But seriously, I think most of the extreme opinions about Adalind and Juliette may be caused more by sloppy and lazy writing and character development than the specific actions of the characters.
Quote:I don't think she wanted to be with Renard after she had Diana. She had intended to go with Kelly wherever the Resistance sent them. It was after discovering Kelly was Nick's mother that she ran to Renard's expecting him to at least keep her safe from the two Grimms and his friends.I don’t think she did either. It was rather clear that Adalind didn’t intend to ever set foot in Portland or have any desire to see Renard again. But she did side with him when she needed protection, much like she sided with Nick when she needed protection. She fell in love with Nick, I don’t think it’s a stretch that she would have fallen in love with Renard, or at the very least remained loyal to him, had he treated her halfway decent and kept their daughter safe.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - rpmaluki - 08-27-2017
Adalind would have renewed her loyalty to Renard had he chose to protect both Adalind and Diana by keeping them together instead of separating mother and daughter. I don't think Adalind would have fallen for him after what happened when she lost her powers. Renard showed his true self where romance was concerned, fool me once and all that. They may have had a FWB relationship but nothing close to what she had with Nick. Nick was as unknown entity compared to Renard and how awkward was it really for either of them to fall for the other? I'm sure if we'd seen things from Adalind's POV, we may have seen her just as hesitant to a relationship with Nick instead of unrealistically rushing things.