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+--- Thread: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? (/Thread-Is-Adalind-is-unfairly-judged-by-the-Fandom)
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - dicappatore - 08-25-2017
(08-25-2017, 08:32 PM)thecdn Wrote:(08-25-2017, 06:04 PM)dicappatore Wrote: thecdn, you have to admit one thing about Adalind. In that final group hug scene. She had screwed three of the five men in the room.
And? Juliette slept with two of the men in the room, and Nick had slept with two of the women. The vast majority of adults have had multiple partners in their lives.
Adalind would be the first to admit two of the three were in her 'evil' phase. Maybe even the first time with Nick
Well I did not want to mention who slept with less that the 50% mark. Juliette slept with 2 of the 5 men, 40%. Nick was at 2 out of 4 women, 50%. Let’s not forget Renard was also at 2 of the 4 women, 50%. But Adalind was on top at 3 of the 5 so, yea she is numero uno, at 60%.
I think the series should have been called “Swingers of Portland with a Grimm Twist”!
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - Robyn - 08-26-2017
Adalind was unfairly judged in that she was negatively received for doing what she was supposed to do as a fictional bad-guy character. I was immediately drawn to Adalind and Renard, not because they were the series regular bad guys but, because they were complex and interesting right out of the gate. And no doubt it’s easier to write bad-guy characters as interesting and complex because there’s less concern with those characters crossing a point of no return.
I don’t understand characters needing to acknowledge the error of their ways and atone for their sins to the satisfaction of viewers. If the fictional story is meant to temporarily suspend reality and draw viewers into the fictional world, atonement and forgiveness, or lack of, occurs between the fictional characters, not the fictional characters and the audience.
Brought over from the ‘Nick & Juliette slow dance’ thread:
(08-24-2017, 03:56 PM)irukandji Wrote: While some seem to praise the efforts of G&K and don't find fault with their writing, all of it stems back to one thing in my opinion and that's very poor writing ability when it comes to women. Juliette was also left destitute. Not to keep bringing up the house because it is a dead horse as far as the discussion is concerned, but it was hers when the series started. That led me to believe that Juliette was well grounded enough to invest in more than just a career as a vet who would haphazardly move in with a cop who himself doesn't seem to be all that grounded. Then all of the sudden it changed hands and became Nick's, leaving her with nothing. Not only that, but these writers saw fit to take everything from Juliette She eventually had to scrounge around in the cellar until Diana decided it was time to rescue her. The worst humiliation for the character, in my opinion, is that she was forced to rely upon Nick's kindness in order to survive.
I don’t think any of the characters were adequately written and fleshed out for the story arcs that were attempted. One-dimensional characterization may have worked had G & K kept it simple with a limited cast of characters and WoW episodes that were restricted to Wesen antagonist bad / Grimm protagonist good. G & K failed to achieve the multifaceted characterization necessary to pull off complicated storylines, and for me, those underdeveloped story arcs and characterizations made the characters & their storylines unbelievable, even within a forty-two minute suspension of reality.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - bart - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 06:58 AM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind was unfairly judged in that she was negatively received for doing what she was supposed to do as a fictional bad-guy character.
So we not supposed judge her because she is bad guy?
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - irukandji - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 07:03 AM)bart Wrote:(08-26-2017, 06:58 AM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind was unfairly judged in that she was negatively received for doing what she was supposed to do as a fictional bad-guy character.
So we not supposed judge her because she is bad guy?
Judgment is up to the beholder, bart. No one can tell you, me, or anyone that a character is being judged unfairly by anyone else.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - Robyn - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 07:03 AM)bart Wrote:Prefer or like one character over another or judge the quality of the acting/writing, yes. Judge a fictional character over his/her predetermined role, no.(08-26-2017, 06:58 AM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind was unfairly judged in that she was negatively received for doing what she was supposed to do as a fictional bad-guy character.So we not supposed judge her because she is bad guy?
Adalind was created to be an antagonist character. Refusing to help her mother and Renard harm innocent people so they could get the key would have made her a good guy character mixed up with the bad guy characters. But Adalind wasn't initially created to be a good-guy character, her characterization progressed in that direction during the course of the show.
Renard played Nick like a fiddle for five seasons, and for four of those seasons he was multilayered and fascinating to watch. I don’t care that the bad guy took advantage of the good guy. I only care that the bad guy was entertaining and made me want to see more of him.
That Nick, the Grimm and detective was played for five seasons is a refection on that character not the antagonist. That Renard had to devolve into a more Adalind-like bad-guy character in S5 so Nick could take him down is a refection of the writing and character development. It’s not the bad-guy character’s fault that the good-guy/hero character was so easily bamboozled for five seasons. The writers could have made the good-guy/hero character more astute and capable of figuring out the bad-guy character’s true agenda before being bitten on the ass.
I thought Kelly Burkhardt was a heartless bitch, but also found the character fascinating and a true reflection Grimm history. Her death befitted her lifestyle and choices, but I didn’t revel in her demise because of any personal opinion of her.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - bart - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 07:51 AM)Robyn Wrote:(08-26-2017, 07:03 AM)bart Wrote:Prefer or like one character over another or judge the quality of the acting/writing, yes. Judge a fictional character over his/her predetermined role, no.(08-26-2017, 06:58 AM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind was unfairly judged in that she was negatively received for doing what she was supposed to do as a fictional bad-guy character.So we not supposed judge her because she is bad guy?
Adalind was created to be an antagonist character. Refusing to help her mother and Renard harm innocent people so they could get the key would have made her a good guy character mixed up with the bad guy characters. But Adalind wasn't initially created to be a good-guy character, her characterization progressed in that direction during the course of the show.
Renard played Nick like a fiddle for five seasons, and for four of those seasons he was multilayered and fascinating to watch. I don’t care that the bad guy took advantage of the good guy. I only care that the bad guy was entertaining and made me want to see more of him.
That Nick, the Grimm and detective was played for five seasons is a refection on that character not the antagonist. That Renard had to devolve into a more Adalind-like bad-guy character in S5 so Nick could take him down is a refection of the writing and character development. It’s not the bad-guy character’s fault that the good-guy/hero character was so easily bamboozled for five seasons. The writers could have made the good-guy/hero character more astute and capable of figuring out the bad-guy character’s true agenda before being bitten on the ass.
I thought Kelly Burkhardt was a heartless bitch, but also found the character fascinating and a true reflection Grimm history. Her death befitted her lifestyle and choices, but I didn’t revel in her demise because of any personal opinion of her.
So we supposed to like Adalind and Renard because they make good bad guys? I disagree.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - brandon - 08-26-2017
Adalind was moved by the interest had in Sean. The attack on uncle Marie, to Hank- then lost his position as "Hexenbiest". His mother rejected and Sean too.
Wanted to cause Nick damage and Sean to be for rejecting it.
Sean acting as an ally for Nick , being the head of the attack on Marie.
Adalind never defended the innocent. I do not think she took into account innocent lives.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - New Guy - 08-26-2017
(08-25-2017, 11:17 PM)dicappatore Wrote:Hi Dicap,(08-25-2017, 08:32 PM)thecdn Wrote:(08-25-2017, 06:04 PM)dicappatore Wrote: thecdn, you have to admit one thing about Adalind. In that final group hug scene. She had screwed three of the five men in the room.
And? Juliette slept with two of the men in the room, and Nick had slept with two of the women. The vast majority of adults have had multiple partners in their lives.
Adalind would be the first to admit two of the three were in her 'evil' phase. Maybe even the first time with Nick
Well I did not want to mention who slept with less that the 50% mark. Juliette slept with 2 of the 5 men, 40%. Nick was at 2 out of 4 women, 50%. Let’s not forget Renard was also at 2 of the 4 women, 50%. But Adalind was on top at 3 of the 5 so, yea she is numero uno, at 60%.
I think the series should have been called “Swingers of Portland with a Grimm Twist”!
The sexual aspects of Grimm have been discussed on this Forum. The promiscuity of individuals is studied by psychologists. Here are three articles from Psychology Today:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201111/what-motivates-sexual-promiscuity
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fighting-fear/201302/certain-aspects-promiscuity
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-is-2020/201410/sex-and-the-psychopath
Some people believe morality is determined by personal choice. Some believe there are moral absolutes that apply to everyone. Some believe women are held to a different moral standard than men regarding promiscuity.
Here is an article by a Catholic priest:
https://sites.google.com/site/faithfulcatholics/Home/living-the-gospel-of-life/articles/writings-of-father-jim-whalen/promiscuity-a-rejection-of-truth-and-morality
Some on this forum find Adalind and Juliette promiscuous. Some find their promiscuity immoral. Others say see nothing wrong.
I recall the scene with Nick and Juliette driving to the wedding:
Quote:In the car, Nick tells Juliette she looks beautiful and she quietly thanks him. He asks her if she is okay, and she says she doesn't know. Nick tells her she seemed pretty okay "not that long ago." She asks him why her negligee was on the floor, and he smiles and says, "I think that's just pretty much where it fell." Juliette asks him when, and he tells her she must be joking, but she sternly says she isn't. Nick asks her if he was "that bad," and she tells him to just tell her what's going on, but he says he doesn't know what she is talking about. She says she's talking about how her negligee was scrunched up on the floor and the bed was messed up when she got home. Nick says, "Yeah, I didn't do that by myself," and Juliette asks who he did it with then. Nick is confused and tells her when he came home, she was wearing the negligee. Juliette asks how stupid he thinks she is because she was gone getting her hair done. Juliette says she can't believe he would do something like that in their home and bed. Nick tells her, "This isn't funny anymore," and she says she would make him pull over so she could get out if they weren't going to Monroe and Rosalee's wedding. Nick says he was in bed with her and that they had sex, but she loudly says, "We didn't!" Nick says it was someone who looked and sounded just like her, and Juliette repeats that it wasn't her. Nick asks who else could it have been, causing Juliette to pause for a second before she realizes that Adalind called earlier and knew she wasn't going to be home. Both get worried looks, and Juliette says she's going to be sick.It makes Juliette sick that Nick got tricked by Adalind. Then later she fornicates Renard and Kenneth. What does she use as her moral compass?
N G
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - dicappatore - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 11:23 AM)New Guy Wrote: I recall the scene with Nick and Juliette driving to the wedding:
Quote:In the car, Nick tells Juliette she looks beautiful and she quietly thanks him. He asks her if she is okay, and she says she doesn't know. Nick tells her she seemed pretty okay "not that long ago." She asks him why her negligee was on the floor, and he smiles and says, "I think that's just pretty much where it fell." Juliette asks him when, and he tells her she must be joking, but she sternly says she isn't. Nick asks her if he was "that bad," and she tells him to just tell her what's going on, but he says he doesn't know what she is talking about. She says she's talking about how her negligee was scrunched up on the floor and the bed was messed up when she got home. Nick says, "Yeah, I didn't do that by myself," and Juliette asks who he did it with then. Nick is confused and tells her when he came home, she was wearing the negligee. Juliette asks how stupid he thinks she is because she was gone getting her hair done. Juliette says she can't believe he would do something like that in their home and bed. Nick tells her, "This isn't funny anymore," and she says she would make him pull over so she could get out if they weren't going to Monroe and Rosalee's wedding. Nick says he was in bed with her and that they had sex, but she loudly says, "We didn't!" Nick says it was someone who looked and sounded just like her, and Juliette repeats that it wasn't her. Nick asks who else could it have been, causing Juliette to pause for a second before she realizes that Adalind called earlier and knew she wasn't going to be home. Both get worried looks, and Juliette says she's going to be sick.It makes Juliette sick that Nick got tricked by Adalind. Then later she fornicates Renard and Kenneth. What does she use as her moral compass?
N G
IMO that’s an easy answer. I have posted a few times how we get small bits of information on Juliette’s promiscuous past throughout the seasons. Her reveal of her grandmother warning her not to stay out late with boys with cars and back seats. Her description, in the supermarket, of her previous boyfriend. Her College roommate disclosure of Juliette’s multiple suitors in their college dorm.
When she becomes a Hex, it released her true persona that was suppressed. We end up seeing the licentious Juliette and her previous immoral compass come back out.
Had to add this. One of the qualities of Adalind I liked over Juliette, as you have pointed out. She was who she was and far from the hypocrite that Juliette tuned out to be.
RE: Is Adalind is unfairly judged by the Fandom? - Hell Rell - 08-26-2017
(08-26-2017, 08:47 AM)bart Wrote:(08-26-2017, 07:51 AM)Robyn Wrote:(08-26-2017, 07:03 AM)bart Wrote:Prefer or like one character over another or judge the quality of the acting/writing, yes. Judge a fictional character over his/her predetermined role, no.(08-26-2017, 06:58 AM)Robyn Wrote: Adalind was unfairly judged in that she was negatively received for doing what she was supposed to do as a fictional bad-guy character.So we not supposed judge her because she is bad guy?
Adalind was created to be an antagonist character. Refusing to help her mother and Renard harm innocent people so they could get the key would have made her a good guy character mixed up with the bad guy characters. But Adalind wasn't initially created to be a good-guy character, her characterization progressed in that direction during the course of the show.
Renard played Nick like a fiddle for five seasons, and for four of those seasons he was multilayered and fascinating to watch. I don’t care that the bad guy took advantage of the good guy. I only care that the bad guy was entertaining and made me want to see more of him.
That Nick, the Grimm and detective was played for five seasons is a refection on that character not the antagonist. That Renard had to devolve into a more Adalind-like bad-guy character in S5 so Nick could take him down is a refection of the writing and character development. It’s not the bad-guy character’s fault that the good-guy/hero character was so easily bamboozled for five seasons. The writers could have made the good-guy/hero character more astute and capable of figuring out the bad-guy character’s true agenda before being bitten on the ass.
I thought Kelly Burkhardt was a heartless bitch, but also found the character fascinating and a true reflection Grimm history. Her death befitted her lifestyle and choices, but I didn’t revel in her demise because of any personal opinion of her.
So we supposed to like Adalind and Renard because they make good bad guys? I disagree.
I don't think anyone is supposed to like the bad guys, per se, but a fascinating character is a fascinating character no matter where their interests align.
For example, The Dark Knight's Joker is one of the best characters I've ever seen on screen. There are plenty of people who think he stole the show and loved his character. I would go as far to say that he is one of the most popular characters ever created.
I remember watching Xena and there was a character who showed up every once in a while who was a complete psycho by the name of Callisto. She was brilliant and often provided some of the best moments in the entire show. It was great whenever she showed up to make Xena and whoever was around her life a living hell. The character and the actress were great to watch.
Back in the days of Game of Thrones being a good show, Joffrey was possibly best antagonist on TV. I looked forward to every scene he was in. It's too bad they tried to too outdo him with Ramsay because he was such a ridiculous character that I had no interest in. Ramsay was a failure because they didn't realize what made Joffrey so great.
The characters I named are more extreme than Renard and Adalind but they're still appreciated by the audience. They're captivating in a way that most good guys aren't.
I don't think Robyn was trying to say that should be liked by virtue of being bad guys. I think she was just saying that they were fascinating and held her attention in a way that Nick and the gang failed to do. She found them more nuanced and complex. Good bad guys can provide a lot to a show. Besides, I'll take a good bad guy over a bad good guy any day.