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+---- Thread: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot (/Thread-S6E02-Trust-Me-Knot)
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - speakeasy - 01-17-2017
(01-17-2017, 07:39 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Renard and Meisner were still connected and "working with" each other right up until the night Renard killed Marwan. They had a confrontation over it in the precinct garage afterward, when Meisner told Renard he had been set up to kill Marwan by BC.
So yes, when Renard chose to join BC, he knew he was choosing to become Meisner's enemy. But he neglected to tell Meisner that they were no longer friends. I call that betrayal. And whether Sean's "Meisner" is a ghost or just a figment of Sean's imagination, one of them does, too.
This is news to me; meaning I don't recall it, but I do believe what you say. I must go back and review and then I'm going to answer you about how I see the subject of Renard being a decent person at heart because that's what I am trying to point out. There's a lot to defend against in Sean's actions; it ain't easy but for the record, I am firmly in his corner and couldn't be that way if I thought he was truly a betrayer. More to come.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-17-2017
The exchange in the garage takes place in "Into the Schwarzwald." Right after Renard watches the video of Dixon's assassination and realizes that Rachel knew where the shot was going to come from before it was fired.
Then Sean goes home and Rachel and Lucien are there to recruit him.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - speakeasy - 01-17-2017
(01-17-2017, 07:52 PM)syscrash Wrote: For me to say it does not make sense to me would be an opinion. I am stating a fact based on the comprehension of the english language.
You are incredibly arrogant. Yes, it would only be an opinion and you are not stating a fact; just your concrete assessment of what you saw. And I am assigning an abstract meaning to the same scenes and dialog as you make reference to. To me it was evident.
(01-17-2017, 07:52 PM)syscrash Wrote: Saying stop but not taking action by definition negates being compassionate. That would be like saying you are sorry shows remorse just before you shot someone in the head. Your actions speak louder then your words.
Not if the victim is suffering. Sean was definitely showing compassion; his was an instinctive reflex. Aimed at putting an end to suffering. Surely you can imagine such a situation. The fact that Renard called for Bonaparte to 'stop' was an act of compassion in itself. He was still working with CB at the time and it is possible he wasn't ready to question the other one's decisions in the moment. I'm not in any way defending him for this particular set of circumstances, only to demonstrate he showed compassion.
I'm tired of trading exchanges with one who I cannot influence to not just see my position, but more importantly, to someone who doesn't see where I'm coming from as valid on the basis of logic. It's fine, let's just get on to our other pursuits.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-17-2017
Even if we accept that Sean knew he had no chance of stopping Conrad with his gun, he could have put himself betwen Conrad and Meisner and told Conrad that if he killed Meisner that BC would lose its new mayor-elect, because he'd walk out on them or they'd have to kill him too. He didn't even give that a try.
Conrad may have considered what Sean did compassion, but I see it as Sean being forced to look the more violent world ruled by wesen he told Nick BC would bring about directly in the eye - literally - and being unable to face it.
I wouldn't call that compassion at all. More like cowardice.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - speakeasy - 01-18-2017
(01-17-2017, 09:51 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Even if we accept that Sean knew he had no chance of stopping Conrad with his gun, he could have put himself betwen Conrad and Meisner and told Conrad that if he killed Meisner that BC would lose its new mayor-elect, because he'd walk out on them or they'd have to kill him too. He didn't even give that a try.
Conrad may have considered what Sean did compassion, but I see it as Sean being forced to look the more violent world ruled by wesen he told Nick BC would bring about directly in the eye - literally - and being unable to face it.
I wouldn't call that compassion at all. More like cowardice.
Opinions differ. Yours and syscrash's opinions take a sharp vector from mine on this subject. We've discussed it long enough to know that there will be no meeting of the minds concerning Sean's compassion in this instance. For the record, I have not changed my opinion, but I leave the field of combat to fight another day for a new cause.
I concede this encounter to the loyal opposition.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - syscrash - 01-18-2017
I my opinion what Sean did for Adalind and Meisner was more out of guilt then a sign of compassion. And act of guilt would not require an action.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - speakeasy - 01-18-2017
(01-18-2017, 05:43 AM)syscrash Wrote: I my opinion what Sean did for Adalind and Meisner was more out of guilt then a sign of compassion. And act of guilt would not require an action.
I realize that is your opinion, syscrash. It's sporting of you to not put it in the form of a statement of fact.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - eric - 01-18-2017
In one of the early episodes of Vikings, the merry band was relaxing after a hard day of looting , killing and raping by torturing a abbot/bishop very slowly, trying to torture without killing him-arrows, cutting, burning. The exmonk goes up to the bishop, says a prayer in his ear, and kills him. The others boo the exmonk for spoiling the evening's entertainment. Was it compassion-yes, was it risky-yes, was it justified-for sure. Same with Meisner/Shaun. The shooting was one of the few "good" things he did all that season.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - syscrash - 01-19-2017
Twice Adalind has shown even under Diana's influence with the dolls. A person has the ability to come to their senses and realize what they are doing. Saying that, Sean was perfectly capable of not stabbing Conrad even under Diana's influence. Unless Sean does not have the mental acuity that Adalind has. That would be hard to believe since Sean has been manipulating Adalind since season one.
The show gives you two exact scenes. Conrad is choking Meisner, Sean's choice is to kill Meisner. The second is Conrad is chocking Nick, Seans choice is to not resist killing Conrad. Both time Conrad was the head of BC and Sean was as involved with BC both times.
So how is it compassion to kill Meisner when Sean could have made the same choice he made for Nick. If he could kill Conrad for NIck why not kill Conrad for Meisner. This is the second time the show has replayed the exact same scenario showing a different out come.
the fist was the opinion that going after Diana could only end in the killing of Kelly. Later they have the same number of men. Armed the exact same way. Both group have the same killer mentality. They have both group going after a target that has a Grimm in the way. This shows Kelly dying was not a for gone conclusion. Kenneth could have used Chavez's approach.,
The same is true with Conrad. Sean could have as easily killed Conrad to save Meisner as he killed Conrad to save Nick. All of the reason people have posted as to why Sean could have not killed Conrad to save Meisner as disproved by Sean actually killing Conrad. The show even went out of it's way to show even under the dolls influence one still has free will.
RE: S6E02 - Trust Me Knot - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-19-2017
Both times Diana was making Adalind and Sean go all hot and bothered on each other, it went on for a while before Adalind realized what was happening and put a stop to it. Quite a bit longer than it took Sean to pick up a sword and stab Conrad. And Sean never stopped on his own; both times it was Adalind. So maybe Sean really doesn't have the ability to recognize what's happening or stop himself when Diana pushes him.
Mental acuity is not psychic power. For a long time, Sean was able to manipulate Adalind emotionally, but never psychically or magically; he's never shown any power of that sort.
That said, what the death of Conrad did show was that he could be surprised when his attention was focused on strangling someone. So I can see no reason to think that Sean couldn't have turned his gun on Conrad and fired off a couple of shots instead of shooting Meisner.