+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Grimm Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Discussions)
+--- Thread: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... (/Thread-one-of-those-things-that-just-frosts-my-flakes)
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - syscrash - 12-23-2016
Quote:Well......how do you know she has a good sense of self-esteem? I mean, where has the show ever gone into any detail to show it? Certainly not in her veterinary skills.She shows total confidence in both her abilities as a vet and what she knows. As a hexenbiest at first her self esteem was none. Even Sean asking for her help she replied aren't you suppose to be helping me. She even questioned all the disadvantages he was telling her about being a hexenbiest. Even though Kenneth's motive was to get to Diana. He was the only one that gave her an options. Even henrietta only provide her with warnings. Even though Kenneth sentiments may not have been genuine. She appear to be more positive and show confidence after his offer. In the spice show she showed plenty of confidence in her abilities.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - syscrash - 12-23-2016
All during season 3 there where moments where Juliette medical knowledge became very useful. What was really interesting was when she supplied scientific reasons to what Rosalee would explain as folklore. 306 was a good example. The books where sure the problem was possession. Because of Juliette not only the council but an addition to the books as to the real cause was now known. could season six combine her scientific knowledge with her hexenbiest ability. Allowing her to create more modern potions and spells.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - irukandji - 12-24-2016
(12-23-2016, 08:54 PM)syscrash Wrote: She shows total confidence in both her abilities as a vet and what she knows. As a hexenbiest at first her self esteem was none. Even Sean asking for her help she replied aren't you suppose to be helping me. She even questioned all the disadvantages he was telling her about being a hexenbiest. Even though Kenneth's motive was to get to Diana. He was the only one that gave her an options. Even henrietta only provide her with warnings. Even though Kenneth sentiments may not have been genuine. She appear to be more positive and show confidence after his offer. In the spice show she showed plenty of confidence in her abilities.
In my opinion, there has been serious injustice done to Juliette because we know so little about her. If this was Hank, or Bud, or even Trubel, I'd be fine with it. They are all secondary characters.
But Juliette is not. She's a main character.
Let's go back to the statements that began the argument; whether Juliette knew or did not know Kelly was going to be killed.
Now, most people believe Juliette knew Kelly was going to be killed and she went upstairs of her own free will because she was too much of a coward to face Kelly.
How do posters base their assumptions that she knew Kelly was going to be killed? Well, as Izzy brought up, she's a vet. She has to be intuitive as part of her profession. While that is true, my rebuttal to this is.......when have we ever seen her use intuitive skills as a vet? She was in the vet hospital with someone for a time span of seconds in one episode and she treated a horse in another for another span of seconds. In my opinion, that doesn't show me diddly squat about her intuitive, much less deductive reasoning, a passion to know, and from my own personal experience, an understanding of her own limitations and the necessary empathy and understanding to communicate that to her patients' caretakers.
There's nothing in Juliette's background that points to her as a liar. There's nothing in her background that points to her as truthful. I mean, we can't go back to a day in medical school where she cheated on her exam or a day in the life where she deliberately euthanized a pet because she didn't feel like operating. On the flip side, we don't have examples of kindness and empathy that we can relate from our own vets either. There's nada, nothing, she was in the hospital once and treated a horse once.
Juliette said she didn't know Kelly was going to be killed. I believe her because there's nothing in her background to show she didn't know or that she did. There's just nothing so I go with her denial.
As for going upstairs, I think Kenneth told her to go upstairs. Maybe it's as Izzy said. She was boinked to nothingness. Series place a lot of emphasis on boinking these days. One real argument here could be was Kenneth really that good or was Nick really that bad?
In any case, more than ever, I feel Juliette's character was dealt an unfair injustice. By doing so, she's been relegated to the ghost of the series.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - rpmaluki - 12-24-2016
I think by setting the trap for Kelly she expected a fight to the death. It's not like she was ignorant even of her neighbors' murders. She lingered upstairs during the fight and only coming down after it was all said and done expecting one outcome. Her statement that she didn't know Kenneth would do that is a lie if she thinks Kelly wouldn't be attacked. It's more like she didn't expect Kelly to die in the encounter, assuming Kelly the super Grimm would defeat all those men singlehandedly. She thought wrong. I don't know what she expected to find when she went downstairs but she did have a "Well f@*#!" look on her face as Purity has said when she got into Kenneth's car, which explains her statement. It's simply not possible for her to not know death was inevitable, she just didn't expect it to be Kelly. She'd taken her little game with/against Nick too far and it was the first and only moment of clarity in her hexenbiest "drunken" rage. The fight in the end, resulting in either her death or Nick's wouldn't erase her guilt then enter Meisner to make the pain and hurt all go away..... What he offered her was a way out, why submit at all, it's not like he's some super human with special skills. Juliette was desperate to forget her culpability in everything she did or participated in doing at the end of season 4. As one of the strongest hexenbiests around nobody could stop her/defeat her unless she wanted them to and her guilt was the perfect tool in shaping her to become Eve, to divorce herself from ever feeling any more emotions and becoming a robot.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - brandon - 12-24-2016
He who seeks revenge finds himself with an empty plate.Unless you are not a psychopath,which is what she was becoming.His biggest crime is that,
Stay in the shadows and manipulate everything.As has happened with other people in real life,with the excuse that they heard nothing,they did not see anything.I do not think I was so ignorant to not really see what would happen,nor did I believe what Tulloch said about his character"That juliette would accept to become a hexenbiest".Juliette became unstable
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - irukandji - 12-24-2016
(12-24-2016, 08:37 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: I think by setting the trap for Kelly she expected a fight to the death. It's not like she was ignorant even of her neighbors' murders. She lingered upstairs during the fight and only coming down after it was all said and done expecting one outcome. Her statement that she didn't know Kenneth would do that is a lie if she thinks Kelly wouldn't be attacked. It's more like she didn't expect Kelly to die in the encounter, assuming Kelly the super Grimm would defeat all those men singlehandedly. She thought wrong. I don't know what she expected to find when she went downstairs but she did have a "Well f@*#!" look on her face as Purity has said when she got into Kenneth's car, which explains her statement. It's simply not possible for her to not know death was inevitable, she just didn't expect it to be Kelly. She'd taken her little game with/against Nick too far and it was the first and only moment of clarity in her hexenbiest "drunken" rage. The fight in the end, resulting in either her death or Nick's wouldn't erase her guilt then enter Meisner to make the pain and hurt all go away..... What he offered her was a way out, why submit at all, it's not like he's some super human with special skills. Juliette was desperate to forget her culpability in everything she did or participated in doing at the end of season 4. As one of the strongest hexenbiests around nobody could stop her/defeat her unless she wanted them to and her guilt was the perfect tool in shaping her to become Eve, to divorce herself from ever feeling any more emotions and becoming a robot.
But here's the thing. All of what you're saying occurred when Juliette was the hexenbiest. For clarification, I'll just call her what a lot of people call her....Hexenette. At the point she became Hexenette, the real person of Juliette died.
If you are saying that none of this is Juliette, and all of it is the Hexenette's doing, then I agree with you. I even agree that she would be lying to Nick because that's what hexenbiests do. But if you're saying this is Juliette from the get go, I say no. We do not have any background on Juliette that would lead us to the conclusion she would even side with Kenneth....or not side with him. We have no background on Juliette to conclude she would kill her neighbors.....or not kill them.
Hexenette, on the other hand, is another story.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - jsgrimm45 - 12-24-2016
(12-24-2016, 08:37 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: I think by setting the trap for Kelly she expected a fight to the death. It's not like she was ignorant even of her neighbors' murders. She lingered upstairs during the fight and only coming down after it was all said and done expecting one outcome. Her statement that she didn't know Kenneth would do that is a lie if she thinks Kelly wouldn't be attacked. It's more like she didn't expect Kelly to die in the encounter, assuming Kelly the super Grimm would defeat all those men singlehandedly. She thought wrong. I don't know what she expected to find when she went downstairs but she did have a "Well f@*#!" look on her face as Purity has said when she got into Kenneth's car, which explains her statement. It's simply not possible for her to not know death was inevitable, she just didn't expect it to be Kelly. She'd taken her little game with/against Nick too far and it was the first and only moment of clarity in her hexenbiest "drunken" rage. The fight in the end, resulting in either her death or Nick's wouldn't erase her guilt then enter Meisner to make the pain and hurt all go away..... What he offered her was a way out, why submit at all, it's not like he's some super human with special skills. Juliette was desperate to forget her culpability in everything she did or participated in doing at the end of season 4. As one of the strongest hexenbiests around nobody could stop her/defeat her unless she wanted them to and her guilt was the perfect tool in shaping her to become Eve, to divorce herself from ever feeling any more emotions and becoming a robot.Would we have to also take into account what she didn't say in the car with Kenneth? When Rospoli called and said Nick wasn't alone Kenneth said he didn't care KILL THEM ALL. Juliette didn't try and stop the order.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - rpmaluki - 12-24-2016
(12-24-2016, 08:57 AM)irukandji Wrote:Juliette as human is a dead as a door nail. I'm talking about the hexenbiest driven Juliette, like a possessed Juliette. Eve is possessed Juliette with all her emotions forcefully suppressed in order to maintain control over her actions, otherwise she'd still be a raging force of nature unpredictable and deadly.(12-24-2016, 08:37 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: I think by setting the trap for Kelly she expected a fight to the death. It's not like she was ignorant even of her neighbors' murders. She lingered upstairs during the fight and only coming down after it was all said and done expecting one outcome. Her statement that she didn't know Kenneth would do that is a lie if she thinks Kelly wouldn't be attacked. It's more like she didn't expect Kelly to die in the encounter, assuming Kelly the super Grimm would defeat all those men singlehandedly. She thought wrong. I don't know what she expected to find when she went downstairs but she did have a "Well f@*#!" look on her face as Purity has said when she got into Kenneth's car, which explains her statement. It's simply not possible for her to not know death was inevitable, she just didn't expect it to be Kelly. She'd taken her little game with/against Nick too far and it was the first and only moment of clarity in her hexenbiest "drunken" rage. The fight in the end, resulting in either her death or Nick's wouldn't erase her guilt then enter Meisner to make the pain and hurt all go away..... What he offered her was a way out, why submit at all, it's not like he's some super human with special skills. Juliette was desperate to forget her culpability in everything she did or participated in doing at the end of season 4. As one of the strongest hexenbiests around nobody could stop her/defeat her unless she wanted them to and her guilt was the perfect tool in shaping her to become Eve, to divorce herself from ever feeling any more emotions and becoming a robot.
But here's the thing. All of what you're saying occurred when Juliette was the hexenbiest. For clarification, I'll just call her what a lot of people call her....Hexenette. At the point she became Hexenette, the real person of Juliette died.
If you are saying that none of this is Juliette, and all of it is the Hexenette's doing, then I agree with you. I even agree that she would be lying to Nick because that's what hexenbiests do. But if you're saying this is Juliette from the get go, I say no. We do not have any background on Juliette that would lead us to the conclusion she would even side with Kenneth....or not side with him. We have no background on Juliette to conclude she would kill her neighbors.....or not kill them.
Hexenette, on the other hand, is another story.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - irukandji - 12-24-2016
(12-24-2016, 09:07 AM)rpmaluki Wrote:(12-24-2016, 08:57 AM)irukandji Wrote:Juliette as human is a dead as a door nail. I'm talking about the hexenbiest driven Juliette, like a possessed Juliette. Eve is possessed Juliette with all her emotions forcefully suppressed in order to maintain control over her actions, otherwise she'd still be a raging force of nature unpredictable and deadly.(12-24-2016, 08:37 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: I think by setting the trap for Kelly she expected a fight to the death. It's not like she was ignorant even of her neighbors' murders. She lingered upstairs during the fight and only coming down after it was all said and done expecting one outcome. Her statement that she didn't know Kenneth would do that is a lie if she thinks Kelly wouldn't be attacked. It's more like she didn't expect Kelly to die in the encounter, assuming Kelly the super Grimm would defeat all those men singlehandedly. She thought wrong. I don't know what she expected to find when she went downstairs but she did have a "Well f@*#!" look on her face as Purity has said when she got into Kenneth's car, which explains her statement. It's simply not possible for her to not know death was inevitable, she just didn't expect it to be Kelly. She'd taken her little game with/against Nick too far and it was the first and only moment of clarity in her hexenbiest "drunken" rage. The fight in the end, resulting in either her death or Nick's wouldn't erase her guilt then enter Meisner to make the pain and hurt all go away..... What he offered her was a way out, why submit at all, it's not like he's some super human with special skills. Juliette was desperate to forget her culpability in everything she did or participated in doing at the end of season 4. As one of the strongest hexenbiests around nobody could stop her/defeat her unless she wanted them to and her guilt was the perfect tool in shaping her to become Eve, to divorce herself from ever feeling any more emotions and becoming a robot.
But here's the thing. All of what you're saying occurred when Juliette was the hexenbiest. For clarification, I'll just call her what a lot of people call her....Hexenette. At the point she became Hexenette, the real person of Juliette died.
If you are saying that none of this is Juliette, and all of it is the Hexenette's doing, then I agree with you. I even agree that she would be lying to Nick because that's what hexenbiests do. But if you're saying this is Juliette from the get go, I say no. We do not have any background on Juliette that would lead us to the conclusion she would even side with Kenneth....or not side with him. We have no background on Juliette to conclude she would kill her neighbors.....or not kill them.
Hexenette, on the other hand, is another story.
But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the essence of Juliette is dead. Not just emotions, but the whole ball of wax. The hexenbiest is simply taking over Juliette's body for its own purposes. In other words, Juliette is no more. Juliette cannot be blamed for what Hexenette does because there is nothing of Juliette in Hexenette. Hexenette is an entirely different entity altogether.
RE: one of those things that just frosts my flakes... - rpmaluki - 12-24-2016
(12-24-2016, 08:57 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Would we have to also take into account what she didn't say in the car with Kenneth? When Rospoli called and said Nick wasn't alone Kenneth said he didn't care KILL THEM ALL. Juliette didn't try and stop the order.I think for the most part Juliette was struggling between feeling like her old self but she was too much enraged because she blamed the group for everything and the hexenbiest took advantage of that. In her more normal Juliette state, she'd never have sat next to the guy that just ordered Nick's murder and that of the people she considered friends. She wouldn't have participated in the murder of her neighbors or sat upstairs while Kelly fought for her life. The hexenbiest had gained too much control of her and was in the driver's seat while her regular self sat by and watched as she torched every last bridge to her old life.
(12-24-2016, 09:13 AM)irukandji Wrote: But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the essence of Juliette is dead. Not just emotions, but the whole ball of wax. The hexenbiest is simply taking over Juliette's body for its own purposes. In other words, Juliette is no more. Juliette cannot be blamed for what Hexenette does because there is nothing of Juliette in Hexenette. Hexenette is an entirely different entity altogether.if that was the case then the hexenbiest would have zero recollection of Juliette and her life with Nick or his friends. Just before she attacked Nick, she said something about still loving him but by then it no longer mattered, she hated him so much more. If Juliette was completely gone why would the hexenbiest feel anything at all for Nick, be it love or hate and that goes for his friends too. If the hexenbiest is a completely new being in Juliette's body and Juliette isn't there anymore, it doesn't explain what Hexenette did. She did all of those things because of how she felt as Juliette. It was Juliette's anger, her resentment. The hexenbiest simply expressed those feelings outwardly and in deadly manner. Juliette's not dead, she's simply possessed by a spirit of some kind feeding off her emotions.