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The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-01-2016
When I am reading or reading a story one of the things l am always trying to find out is he rules that define how the story is build.
As a simple example, a story based on real life like an investigation procedure series the rules are easy to know.
A fantasy/magical show use to have real elements but they also have its own rules to describe the extraordinary elements added to the show universe.
Let's take grimm as example. Nick is a detective and this way he should follow real life rules. But he is a Grimm and grimm do not exist in real life. What a Grimm is, how a Grimm identify wesen, why wesen fears grimm are all questions that the answers add new elements to the fantasy universe of the show.
I know the should not give a detailed teaching about this because the show would be boring for doing this. But those rules would give consistency to the show if we could indirectly see them in the story.
What I mean is, for example, the show never gave any minimal sign of why Juliette became hexanbiest. In the first season hexanbiests were much less strong than they are in the end (just compare how Kelly killed Adelaind mother.... Would she be able to Conrad or Eve in the same way?).
But now the show is hitting its end and we don't have time to answer all the questions about the rules of the Grimm universe.
My questions are:
What questions do you still have?
How would you answer them?
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - syscrash - 12-01-2016
Would the show be better if for example they definitively defined what a hexnebiest is or what a wesen is. It would change the nature of the discussions.
To me I prefer implicit explanations instead of explicit. Explanations being implicit requires me to be more involved with the show. Yes if the clues are not clear false assumptions can be made. Implicit explanations require viewing the show objectively. It requires to not judge based on one bias of what should or should not be. But based on the intent being shown.
Because a character gets mad and kills does not make them a killer. If that was not the shows intent.
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - izzy - 12-01-2016
(12-01-2016, 02:58 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: When I am reading or reading a story one of the things l am always trying to find out is he rules that define how the story is build.
As a simple example, a story based on real life like an investigation procedure series the rules are easy to know. A fantasy/magical show use to have real elements but they also have its own rules to describe the extraordinary elements added to the show universe.
Exactly. Almost every show I have watched relates in a one to one fashion with most elements of the real world, with a subset of potential fantasy elements, it doesn;t matter if it is inn book form, a play, television or a movie. The progenitor of the entire Sword & Sorcery genre created his own time/world, with fantasy elements, but even in that, almost all elements mapped to things we understand and recognize today.
(12-01-2016, 02:58 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Let's take grimm as example. Nick is a detective and this way he should follow real life rules. But he is a Grimm and grimm do not exist in real life. What a Grimm is, how a Grimm identify wesen, why wesen fears grimm are all questions that the answers add new elements to the fantasy universe of the show.
I know the should not give a detailed teaching about this because the show would be boring for doing this. But those rules would give consistency to the show if we could indirectly see them in the story.
I slightly disagree here. It is a fairly trivial matter to define things. On Grimm it would have been easy without being boring. Monroe and Rosalee are both defacto mentors to Nick as were the Grimm books. And for a while he could easily have had Renard's council as well as Adalind's. It would have been easy to explain things conversationally as a matter of exploration for Nick. Just a few moments per episode would have gone a long way.
(12-01-2016, 02:58 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: My questions are:
What questions do you still have?
How would you answer them?
I differ here. First of all, I think the writers did a schlock ob overall, so if you asked them for an answer you would probably get another hack job that made no sense (the map that did not need all keys etc). It would be different if I were guaranteed to get a thoughtful response from the creators verses a path of least resistance answer.
Moreover, I would rather have the creative team explain the choices they made ad the things that were forced on them. I still contend that they thought they had to wrap it up in season 5, and likely rewrote and shot a few scenes of the last episode to unwrap the series. there are a lot of dangling things that I would like to know what the real intention was. But I suspect often the answer was they were just seeding ideas to give them something to work with in the future.
Frankly I am interested in how the creative team operates and what input the actors had as I am in the actual filmed storyline. I would like to see the story boards and see how much the actors and director wing it.
I know this is not the topic of your query, but it is kin to it.
Regards...
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-02-2016
(12-01-2016, 11:00 PM)izzy Wrote: I know this is not the topic of your query, but it is kin to it.Hello izzy... It is not off topic. It just added new questions/directions to the same topic.
(12-01-2016, 11:00 PM)izzy Wrote: Monroe and Rosalee are both defacto mentors to Nick as were the Grimm books.You are right, Monroe was a character in the show used to teach Nick what a grimm is. But your comment made me think about something that is so obvious and I haven’t think about until now: he was there also to be used as guide the viewers in the grimm world. Almost everytime the writers needed to give us a new info about the grimm world they used Monroe, Rosalee or one of the books. That was the case when Nick found out he was a grimm. That was the case when Nick found out about the black eyes. And so on…
(12-01-2016, 11:00 PM)izzy Wrote: I differ here. First of all, I think the writers did a schlock ob overall, so if you asked them for an answer you would probably get another hack job that made no sense (the map that did not need all keys etc). It would be different if I were guaranteed to get a thoughtful response from the creators verses a path of least resistance answer.Shame on me… Actually the questions I posted weren’t to the writers. Those questions were to the forum. If I could ask something to the writers, I would for sure make the same questions you posted.
(12-01-2016, 11:00 PM)izzy Wrote: Moreover, I would rather have the creative team explain the choices they made ad the things that were forced on them. I still contend that they thought they had to wrap it up in season 5, and likely rewrote and shot a few scenes of the last episode to unwrap the series. there are a lot of dangling things that I would like to know what the real intention was. But I suspect often the answer was they were just seeding ideas to give them something to work with in the future.Those are very interesting questions that I would like to ask the writers if I could. I would add some others based on some ideas I have about the process. Because if you think about a book, when a writer starts it he knows he will be able to end it. He also knows that when the reader takes that book the reader will have all story at once to read from the beginning to the end. I know some writers writes one single story divided in 7 different books, but usually the story of a book has a start and an end.
Frankly I am interested in how the creative team operates and what input the actors had as I am in the actual filmed storyline. I would like to see the story boards and see how much the actors and director wing it.
If you think about a TV show, you know how and when it starts but you don’t know when it ends. This way ( I think ) the writers is supposed to write the story leaving opened questions in the way so they have elements to keep telling the story if the show is renewed for a new season. They can never fully close it because if they do it they can fall without elements to continue telling the story in the next season. How do they deal with this process? What do you think/know about it?
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - irukandji - 12-04-2016
(12-01-2016, 02:58 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: My questions are:
What questions do you still have?
How would you answer them?
These are more observations than questions. It involves Grimm's treatment of the average, everyday human. I'll start with Hank and Wu. They are seasoned police officers. Hank has more of a street advantage, but their "bordering on insanity" reactions to wesen seem unbelievable to me. Seasoned cops have seen a lot and I find it unbelievable that either would have that kind of a reaction. My answer to that would be to simply make it known that some humans have seen wesen. For those humans that encounter a wesen for the first time, make their reactions as different as the wesen they encounter. Not every single human is going to freak and check themselves into an insane aslyum at the sight of woged wesen. We already have documented instances where people in real life have claims to seeing Bigfoot, the Abominable, Chupacabra, ghosts, the devil, angels, and yes, even aliens from another world. From what I recall none of them have checked themselves into the nearest mental facility.
A similar concept was used in X-Files with aliens, and human monsters. Some humans saw them, but could not prove what they saw. Yet the series also kept the skeptical human side around as well for balance.
My next observation concerns two pet peeves that occur on Grimm. The first is a wesen's (what I would call interim ability) to woge, yet humans cannot see the wesen. The second part is a Grimm's ability to see this interim woge. It has some real issues. For instance, Adalind's first woge at Nick. Nick did nothing that would cause Adalind to woge at him in the first place. He was simply watching her, just like anyone else might be watching her.
Secondly, the black eye abyss thing. Adalind was a fair distance away from Nick when she woged. Was it really possible to see his dark eyes and be able to tell he was a Grimm at that distance? I don't recall any other wesen being able to pick out Nick as a Grimm from a distance. The other thing it's hard to believe wesen would be sent running at the sight of Nick's black eyes because of some childhood fear. Nick just isn't all that frightening.
A problem I find with the interim woge is that it's just a dumb story arc ploy that doesn't make sense. How can the wesen parts of these humans be invisible to the naked human eye? There is no precedent in any earthly species being able grow parts and then render those parts of themselves completely invisible so other species cannot see them. Species can effectively camouflage themselves so they appear invisible but that's as close as it gets.
My answer to this is a simple one. Remove this interim function for both wesen and Grimms.
The final thing I wanted to mention is the different kinds of wesen and the abilities of these wesen. The manticore immediately comes to mind. I've watched enough Star Trek and read enough criticisms of that series' to know that it has taken some gross liberties with physics. As an example, the series, Star Trek Voyager had the captain and some of the crew turned into small lizards. Physically that's impossible because the human body is not the same mass as a small lizard. Not being satisfied with that, Star Trek didn't even consider that a human doesn't have the same DNA as a lizard.
The manticore is a frightening wesen, there's no doubt about it. But a medium sized man couldn't quickly grow a large tail, manufacture poison, and the other extremities to become this huge wesen, then simply shrink the tail and other extremities back into his body when he was through with being a manticore. In addition, there's no explanation of what kind of energy is needed or would be stored for such a transformation.
I know these are nit picky observations, but I enjoy the scientific side of science fiction. To completely assume all viewers are mushrooms sitting in front of a television is a bit on the insulting side. The series doesn't have to go into every physical detail or even make it absolutely positively scientifically correct. If they're going to radically change humans, part of the fun in my opinion, is having Nick and company discover how wesen are able to transform so radically. By doing so, they bring the viewer into the story to discover them as well.
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - izzy - 12-04-2016
(12-04-2016, 12:42 AM)irukandji Wrote: I know these are nit picky observations, but I enjoy the scientific side of science fiction. To completely assume all viewers are mushrooms sitting in front of a television is a bit on the insulting side. The series doesn't have to go into every physical detail or even make it absolutely positively scientifically correct.
Oh my, that post of your was both informative and hilarious. There you go again - thinking. Don't you know that according to some we are all just suppose to light up a giant doobie and enjoy the show without engaging our brains?
Your points were excellent as always. And like you, I find science fiction at its best when it simply stretches the envelope of what we currently understand without being incongruent. At its best sci-fi opens the mind to the possibilities and makes a person wonder and hopefully motivates them to pursue what their minds conceive.
Regards...
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - syscrash - 12-04-2016
The show defies the laws of physics on every turn. To woge on an interim level or a full woge would require the ability to alter matter. That is why the show is science fiction.
The seeing a wesen causing someone to go insane. That is the most idealistic part of the show. To see someone even turn into a fluffy bunny would cause anyone to question ones since of reality.
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - irukandji - 12-04-2016
Quote:quote='syscrash' pid='36994' dateline='1480842275']
The show defies the laws of physics on every turn.
Yes, and look where it is now, on the chopping block. Grimm didn't defy the law of physics rarely or occasionally. It decided that it didn't defy the law of physics enough. Why? Because it doesn't take its viewer seriously. To them, we are the proverbial mushroom growing in front of the television.
Quote:To woge on an interim level or a full woge would require the ability to alter matter. That is why the show is science fiction.
The interim woge is a dumb ploy and has been from the getgo. There is no real use for it other than for Grimms to detect. That doesn't make sense in the way our world works. Species A doesn't develop a trait so Species B can develop a trait to detect the trait that Species A developed. But you can call that science fiction and you'd be right. The problem is, in terms of the show, it's nonsense.
Now if wesen and Grimm were on Planet Cell Phone where Grimms were the law and wesen were the nemesis/innocents, I'd be completely fine with your explanation.
Quote:quote='syscrash' pid='36994' dateline='1480842275']
The seeing a wesen causing someone to go insane. That is the most idealistic part of the show. To see someone even turn into a fluffy bunny would cause anyone to question ones since of reality.
For you idealistic, for me frustrating and annoying. I don't like that Grimm portrays true humans as true fools, blissfully walking among danger and not knowing what that danger is. I could believe this if there haven't been documented sightings of unproven things on earth. But the concept of hardened police officer seeing what he thinks is a human animal hybrid and immediately checking himself into a mental health facility is completely unrealistic, not to mention ridiculous.
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - izzy - 12-04-2016
(12-04-2016, 10:53 AM)irukandji Wrote: Yes, and look where it is now, on the chopping block. Grimm didn't defy the law of physics rarely or occasionally. It decided that it didn't defy the law of physics enough. Why? Because it doesn't take its viewer seriously. To them, we are the proverbial mushroom growing in front of the television.
Yep. I have mentioned "we" have not watch 3 episodes from last season, nor do we have the desire to do so. I am sure we will watch most of season 6 or at least the last couple of episodes to close the series out, but the inconsistencies, the ridiculous plots, the ridiculous portrays of human interaction all point to a creative team that is very dismissive of the viewers.
Grimm had the potential to be a very clever series,well we know what path the creative team decided to take.
(12-04-2016, 10:53 AM)irukandji Wrote: The interim woge is a dumb ploy and has been from the getgo. There is no real use for it other than for Grimms to detect. That doesn't make sense in the way our world works. Species A doesn't develop a trait so Species B can develop a trait to detect the trait that Species A developed. But you can call that science fiction and you'd be right. The problem is, in terms of the show, it's nonsense.
You know I was always bothered by it but until you mentioned it I was not sure why. Yes of course it is asinine. Species evolve by surviving not committing suicide.
(12-04-2016, 10:53 AM)irukandji Wrote: For you idealistic, for me frustrating and annoying. I don't like that Grimm portrays true humans as true fools, blissfully walking among danger and not knowing what that danger is. I could believe this if there haven't been documented sightings of unproven things on earth. But the concept of hardened police officer seeing what he thinks is a human animal hybrid and immediately checking himself into a mental health facility is completely unrealistic, not to mention ridiculous.
Exactly. Some years ago at a summer camp a north west state police officer told a group of us he once thought he saw Bigfoot...his reaction was to draw his sidearm, and attempt to verify what he thought he saw. To this day his eyes told him it was bigfoot and he interpreted that as a potential threat and responded as he was trained. No mental institution for him either. In fact he had no issues with discussing it with out officers and his superiors.
RE: The rules of the Grimm fantasy world - syscrash - 12-04-2016
Quote:Yes, and look where it is now, on the chopping block. Grimm didn't defy the law of physics rarely or occasionally. It decided that it didn't defy the law of physics enough. Why? Because it doesn't take its viewer seriously. To them, we are the proverbial mushroom growing in front of the television.From the very first woge the show defied the laws of physics. Take shows like star trek. At least it adheres to theoretical laws. Lets take telekinesis. To push something you could make a theoretical argument. But not to call for something. or take the woge, had they made it a change in a person appearance. It could be explained using the changes in soft tissue such as a chameleon. But they created a change to the mass. The ramifications of doing that would be unthinkable. That would be as bad as altering time.