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+--- Thread: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption (/Thread-hexenbiset-witches-no-redemption)
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-02-2016
(12-02-2016, 07:45 AM)izzy Wrote: I was always hopeful that the name Eve was very deliberate and a biblical reference. given that, you could go down several scholarly tracks, but two that should apparent to all who grew up in Judeo-Christian circles
01) Eve, as in the woman who committed the original sin in the garden of eden
02) As part of the doctrine of original sin, is the idea that sins of the forefathers leading to punishment of their descendants
There are of course many others,but these two are common expressed in most Jude-Christian sects. Original sin being a device-catch-all metaphor for the idea that humans are imperfect creatures, and all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
Of course many Christians would quickly tie in the idea that Jesus needed to die for our sins, or as repentance for original sin.
When taken together you can come up with several powerful plotlines/resolutions. So just looking at this from a storyline standpoint we could look at Hexenbiest in and of themselves as a form of original sin and that the sin flows within the bloodline from generation to generation and can only be remedied by a sacrifice involving death. Of course it is easy to go the Christian route and invoke the idea of resurrection.
So this of course ties into your comments about denial and repentance. One idea form Christianity that it is actually impossible for the individual to repent and needs an outside factor to pay for the sin. So for example, perhaps a sacrifice by Eve saves Diana, or whatever. The analogies are many.
Regards...
As you went back to Eve and the original sin, as far as I have learned the idea of sacrificed came from GOD’s order to ADAM.
“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Genesis 2:17 - KJV)
The idea is: sin brings death. The sacrifice is because someone (Jesus) or an animal (in the old alliance) dies in the place of the sinner. That is the origin of the idea of sacrifice, as far as I have learned. (This is not a theology debate, I know.
and that is not the idea.)I think it would be interesting to mix all of this in a single plot line… No one never explained how Juliette became a hexanbiest, but when Adelaind recovery her powers she had to take a spirit from another hexanbiest. Juliette’s hexan-spirit came from same one… the first/original hexanbiest… maybe? I mena the “Eve” of hexanbiests?
I think it would be interesting if the stick (Nick used it on Eve in the final season) unleashed the spirits memories. I mean, imagine if Eve had now access to the hexanbiest memories and knowlodge. The writers could use it to go through the way you draw.
I think I am going too far in this now…
But there you have some CRAZY ideas to work with...
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Hexenadler - 12-02-2016
Guys, I think "The Believer" made it pretty clear that the show's creators are atheists who regard religious faith with cynicism at best, and open derision at worst. I seriously doubt they've put much thought into the Biblical significance of a name like Eve, or the possibility of the healing stick being a fragment of the crucifixion cross.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - brandon - 12-02-2016
If there were a character of a pedophile priest think they are not? . there are supposedly religious people who are to make much kind of spectacles saying that it is for the glory of god.for me religious people are not always synonmous with good people
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-02-2016
(12-02-2016, 10:31 AM)Hexenadler Wrote: Guys, I think "The Believer" made it pretty clear that the show's creators are atheists who regard religious faith with cynicism at best, and open derision at worst. I seriously doubt they've put much thought into the Biblical significance of a name like Eve, or the possibility of the healing stick being a fragment of the crucifixion cross.
I think you are right. It is a long time since I stopped posting things like "they writers may be doing this" as a trying to guess something.
Now I post more as a possibility of different ways that can be follow even knowing that the writers will choose a completely different path.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - izzy - 12-02-2016
(12-02-2016, 11:28 AM)brandon Wrote: If there were a character of a pedophile priest think they are not? . there are supposedly religious people who are to make much kind of spectacles saying that it is for the glory of god.for me religious people are not always synonmous with good people
I very much agree. There are scum everywhere. I have met several members of the cloth who are sleaze bags or ego maniacs and seek glory on the backs of the poor.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - irukandji - 12-02-2016
(12-02-2016, 05:29 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Irukandji,
I don’t know The Crucible, but I will search for it. I got interested.
About Eve, I believe (and I am talking about personal believing) that for redemption (and self-forgiveness) it is necessarily first to recognize that there is a mistake (or a sin) that need to be forgiven. I don’t think that is Eve’s case. She never accept she did anything wrong. When talking to nick she said “Juliette did”, not she (considering Nick’s mother death and all the events on season 4). I would say Eve is more in denial than in repentance.
NOTE: I am not judging Juliette’s action. I am just saying that for me if forgiveness is necessary, it is necessary first a repentance. If Juliette is not guilty of anything there is no need for forgiveness. If Eve doesn’t accept she did anything (she acts as Juliette is another person) then there is no way for forgiveness. Again, this is my way of view things; it is not a fundamental truth of the universe.
I think Eve's backstory is much more complex and will never be shared with the audience, Adriano. On the other hand, I could be wrong and it could all come out in season six, who knows? In any case, I don't see her as a character who's simply been given the decision of becoming someone else and jumping at the chance. It just doesn't work that way.
I was thinking about Meisner's statement to Juliette:
"You're dead, but you don't have to stay that way."
What if Juliette replied by saying, "kiss my uber hexenbiest rear and go to hell, Meisner. I'm not doing anything you say."
Would Meisner have shrugged his shoulders, undid her restraints, freed her, and then wished her happy trails? Hardly.
I think his statement to her was an ominous one. If she didn't comply with HW, she was dead meat. She was already dead to Nick and the gang. Meisner just promised her it'd be for real this time.
(12-02-2016, 05:29 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Now, you talked about Eve giving up her name. Correct me if I wrong, but are you talking about the fact she changed her name from Juliette to Eve? Do you think it can be a metaphor for something else that is not only She is a new person?
I don't think Juliette took the name of Eve or made the conscious decision to become a new person. I think Eve was Meisner's idea, not Juliette's. He told her that she would learn to control her rage *if* she survived. Could she be made to control her rage through the use of torture? Could torture program her into believing herself as Eve? Why not? The Inquisition got people to confess to beliefs that were completely false, just so they'd stop the torture.
Suppose Juliette succombed to the torture and was forced to became Eve so the torture would stop. It could be the reason why, when she was asked about Juliette, she replied she wasn't "going there". I'm paraphrasing, but you get the point. Any remorse, any regret, any feelings over what she'd done that night at Nick's would never be explored because they belong to Juliette. As Eve, she was forced into staying away from those memories.
I'm by no means excusing Juliette for what she did that night. I'm just saying that as Eve, she may not be capable of seeking forgiveness or forgiving herself.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - syscrash - 12-02-2016
Quote:It's not such a stretch to believe that Juliette was tortured into controlling her rage if she became Eve.That is a stretch. Slavery proves that torture can not change ones thinking. The most it will do is alter a person actions. Because they smile in your face does not mean they don't want to slit your throat. Indoctrination is the only way to change a person. That can not be done using torture.
Why do people have so much trouble with the concept of Juliette vs Juliette the hexenbiest which is what Eve is. Season 4 was Juliette learning to be a hexenbiest. The outcome was the realization she was no longer human. It was that realization that had her not wanting to live. People want to make her actions the cause for her wanting to die. It is her no longer being human that makes her want to die. Meisners conversation like the writers where speaking in metaphors when they talk about her dying. His statements intent is supported by Eve statement about finding a reason to live. If Eve had not wanted to go through the training she would have been just like and addict that refuses treatment. She would have been left with the feeling of hopelessness. All the literal explanations being put forth are contradicted by statements made in season 5. When Trubel and Meisner talk about surviving what they do to her. It is the same concept used in special forces training. Remember HW is a special forces branch of the government. So it make sense they would use the same concepts.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - irukandji - 12-03-2016
(12-02-2016, 11:51 PM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:It's not such a stretch to believe that Juliette was tortured into controlling her rage if she became Eve.That is a stretch. Slavery proves that torture can not change ones thinking. The most it will do is alter a person actions. Because they smile in your face does not mean they don't want to slit your throat. Indoctrination is the only way to change a person. That can not be done using torture.
Syscrash, you completely missed the point of my post. You assume I'm talking about reality. Keep in mind this is Grimm, where women can change into other women and men by use of potions and spells.
Men have special powers that can be taken away by use of chemicals and sex. Women have powers that can be eradicated by swallowing the blood of their enemies. In other words it's about magic and potions, and things that don't occur in the real world to the extent they do in Grimm.
Why would you bring up slavery and try to plaud it off as a valid argument to that?
(12-02-2016, 11:51 PM)syscrash Wrote: Why do people have so much trouble with the concept of Juliette vs Juliette the hexenbiest which is what Eve is. Season 4 was Juliette learning to be a hexenbiest. The outcome was the realization she was no longer human. It was that realization that had her not wanting to live. People want to make her actions the cause for her wanting to die. It is her no longer being human that makes her want to die. Meisners conversation like the writers where speaking in metaphors when they talk about her dying. His statements intent is supported by Eve statement about finding a reason to live. If Eve had not wanted to go through the training she would have been just like and addict that refuses treatment. She would have been left with the feeling of hopelessness. All the literal explanations being put forth are contradicted by statements made in season 5. When Trubel and Meisner talk about surviving what they do to her. It is the same concept used in special forces training. Remember HW is a special forces branch of the government. So it make sense they would use the same concepts.
I would also add to your statements that this is your opinion and yours only.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - izzy - 12-03-2016
(12-02-2016, 10:56 PM)irukandji Wrote: Suppose Juliette succombed to the torture and was forced to became Eve so the torture would stop. It could be the reason why, when she was asked about Juliette, she replied she wasn't "going there". I'm paraphrasing, but you get the point. Any remorse, any regret, any feelings over what she'd done that night at Nick's would never be explored because they belong to Juliette. As Eve, she was forced into staying away from those memories.
I'm by no means excusing Juliette for what she did that night. I'm just saying that as Eve, she may not be capable of seeking forgiveness or forgiving herself.
I will say this, continual pain does funny (as in odd - bizarre) things to the human mind and emotional state. It does things to people and seldom are they the same after it.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - syscrash - 12-03-2016
The statement was I was objecting to was.
Quote:It's not such a stretch to believe that Juliette was tortured into controlling her rage if she became Eve.My answers was
Quote:That is a stretch. Slavery proves that torture can not change ones thinking.
Even in the show never has physical force been shown to make a difference. Let alone violence being a control method is not a valid concept. This whole idea of Meisner torturing Juliette because he hit her has no bases even in the shows reality. If torture was intended to be what changed her. You would see some evidence other then Meisner slapping her.