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+--- Thread: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption (/Thread-hexenbiset-witches-no-redemption)
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Robyn - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 06:21 AM)irukandji Wrote: I'm still not so sure an apology is really a way of earning redemption...Juliette can feel genuine remorse and express that remorse through words and action, but Nick’s forgiveness is his choice. And Nick’s forgiveness, is just that, his personal decision to let go of the hate. Nothing Nick does can absolve Juliette. Juliette’s redemption comes from within and through faith.
IMO, Juliette only wanting Nick’s forgiveness and being perfectly fine with any other bad act she’s committed or will commit would contradict a genuine desire for redemption. She would simply want to put her troubles with Nick to rest. That’s not redemption.
But that goes back to the argument of what makes some actions worse than others on the show. I’ve always considered who the bad act was committed against as the defining difference. I don’t think many would care if Juliette had murdered randomly before returning to Nick and pledging her loyalty.
The Adalind hate isn’t because of what she did as much as who she did it to. Adalind didn’t do anything against Nick in S5 other than put her children first. Yet, many see that as a betrayal even though Nick doesn’t. And some believe the only way Juliette and Adalind can redeem themselves is to die for Nick.
Renard is considered a ‘good guy’ despite masterminding the initial attack against Nick. He never actually sided with the good fight, but he appeared to be helping Nick. And that seems to be all that matters. The fact that he considered Nick an asset to be protected and cultivated is dismissed.
And this goes back to the argument that 'good guys' can never be wrong even when they're committing the same acts as the 'bad guys'. Self-righteous double standards.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - jsgrimm45 - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 07:00 AM)Robyn Wrote:I would debate it is the intent of the action that makes one a "good guy" or a "bad guy". So using this idea of intent isn't a self righteous double standard. May be the same action but with different intent changes the rules.(01-10-2017, 06:21 AM)irukandji Wrote: I'm still not so sure an apology is really a way of earning redemption...Juliette can feel genuine remorse and express that remorse through words and action, but Nick’s forgiveness is his choice. And Nick’s forgiveness, is just that, his personal decision to let go of the hate. Nothing Nick does can absolve Juliette. Juliette’s redemption comes from within and through faith.
IMO, Juliette only wanting Nick’s forgiveness and being perfectly fine with any other bad act she’s committed or will commit would contradict a genuine desire for redemption. She would simply want to put her troubles with Nick to rest. That’s not redemption.
But that goes back to the argument of what makes some actions worse than others on the show. I’ve always considered who the bad act was committed against as the defining difference. I don’t think many would care if Juliette had murdered randomly before returning to Nick and pledging her loyalty.
The Adalind hate isn’t because of what she did as much as who she did it to. Adalind didn’t do anything against Nick in S5 other than put her children first. Yet, many see that as a betrayal even though Nick doesn’t. And some believe the only way Juliette and Adalind can redeem themselves is to die for Nick.
Renard is considered a ‘good guy’ despite masterminding the initial attack against Nick. He never actually sided with the good fight, but he appeared to be helping Nick. And that seems to be all that matters. The fact that he considered Nick an asset to be protected and cultivated is dismissed.
And this goes back to the argument that 'good guys' can never be wrong even when they're committing the same acts as the 'bad guys'. Self-righteous double standards.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Robyn - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 07:28 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: I would debate it is the intent of the action that makes one a "good guy" or a "bad guy". So using this idea of intent isn't a self righteous double standard. May be the same action but with different intent changes the rules.I copied this example from the Eve Adalind thread:
Nick never questioned his right to arrest the man who avenged his son’s murder. There wasn’t a crisis of conscious or any guilt that Nick struggled with. At no time did he consider that killing Kenneth for revenge compromised his ethical duties as a police officer. But then neither did Hank.
Nick committed murder when he killed Kenneth. Hank and Wu were accessories to murder. Why do their reasons for doing it matter, if the same consideration wasn’t given to the man in Maiden Quest? Other than it’s okay as long as it’s Nick or his people committing criminal or immoral acts?
What was Nick's intent when he killed Kenneth? What was Adalind's intent when she took Nick's Grimm?
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - irukandji - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 07:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: And some believe the only way Juliette and Adalind can redeem themselves is to die for Nick.
I know, but what does that do except put some big holes in the story? If that were to happen, I would have to question both womens' sanity. Dying for Nick is the last thing they should do.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Robyn - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:Preaching to the choir, sister. Willing to die for Nick is only one rung higher on the crazy ladder than loving, trusting, and admiring his noble character.(01-10-2017, 07:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: And some believe the only way Juliette and Adalind can redeem themselves is to die for Nick.I know, but what does that do except put some big holes in the story? If that were to happen, I would have to question both womens' sanity. Dying for Nick is the last thing they should do.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - brandon - 01-10-2017
The guilty must be paid in life.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - irukandji - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 09:56 AM)brandon Wrote: The guilty must be paid in life.
Wouldn't that include all of the scoobies?
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-10-2017
Probably. In real life, the big, bad power organizations are the ones that win and the hardy bands of little people trying to fight them are the ones who get crushed.
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - Grimmbiest11 - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 09:50 AM)Robyn Wrote:(01-10-2017, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:Preaching to the choir, sister. Willing to die for Nick is only one rung higher on the crazy ladder than loving, trusting, and admiring his noble character.(01-10-2017, 07:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: And some believe the only way Juliette and Adalind can redeem themselves is to die for Nick.I know, but what does that do except put some big holes in the story? If that were to happen, I would have to question both womens' sanity. Dying for Nick is the last thing they should do.
Now that would be just shitty and an insult to feminist principles given they've emphasized on the 'strong woman' concept. Strong women don't die for men to make themselves look nice
RE: hexenbiset = witches = no redemption - irukandji - 01-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 01:07 PM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote:(01-10-2017, 09:50 AM)Robyn Wrote:(01-10-2017, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:Preaching to the choir, sister. Willing to die for Nick is only one rung higher on the crazy ladder than loving, trusting, and admiring his noble character.(01-10-2017, 07:00 AM)Robyn Wrote: And some believe the only way Juliette and Adalind can redeem themselves is to die for Nick.I know, but what does that do except put some big holes in the story? If that were to happen, I would have to question both womens' sanity. Dying for Nick is the last thing they should do.
Now that would be just shitty and an insult to feminist principles given they've emphasized on the 'strong woman' concept. Strong women don't die for men to make themselves look nice
Agree. But there are any number of people on the forum who, particularly with regard to Eve, feel she should give up her life for Nick.