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+---- Thread: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End (/Thread-S5E21-22-The-Beginning-of-the-End)
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - New Guy - 05-22-2016
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:Hi Iruk,(05-22-2016, 09:08 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Seems like most good tales involve prologue and consequences, but yours is the more hopeful interpretation of the show's intent.
Most of the commenters here believe Juliette/Eve doesn't owe atonement to herself, but instead believe that she owes Nick. Big time. After all, she betrayed and got his mother killed and she destroyed his trailer. Many believe Nick had the right to demand her life in return for what she did. Many believe that is still coming.
So in the season finale, Nick literally holds her life in his hands.
You are right, speakeasy, most tales involve consequences. Why didn't Nick let Juliette/Eve die as consequence for his mother's death and the destruction of the trailer?
Nick sees FrankenEve as Juliette. He saw Hexenette as Juliette as she attacked him, was shot by Trubel and "died" in his arms. His expression was anguish. He still loved (and may still love) Juliette.
Quote:Nick: No. [He catches Juliette as she falls to the ground] No. No, Juliette.FrankenEve has yet to repent, express real remorse to Nick and ask him to forgive her. She needs to woman up confess and take responsibility for what she did.
Juliette: [Gasping, moaning] Nick.
Nick: Juliette, no.
[Blood starts coming out of the side of Juliette's mouth, and she dies]
New Guy
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - speakeasy - 05-22-2016
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote:(05-22-2016, 09:08 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Seems like most good tales involve prologue and consequences, but yours is the more hopeful interpretation of the show's intent.
Most of the commenters here believe Juliette/Eve doesn't owe atonement to herself, but instead believe that she owes Nick. Big time. After all, she betrayed and got his mother killed and she destroyed his trailer. Many believe Nick had the right to demand her life in return for what she did. Many believe that is still coming.
I am a fan of Juliette's, always have been, but I also believe she owes atonement to Nick. It would be a most compassionate act if she would do something to protect those with which she fights that would eliminate the necessity of Nick's actually having to bring down retribution to one he loved so deeply. It would do much to release the grevious burdens of her guilt of being instrumental in the killing of Kelly, and his of having to avenge her. There is no happy ending here, imo, just a sad kind of closure.
Of course, some really intelligent and imaginative scenario could be conceived to alter my pessimistic prognostication, I would really like that.
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote: You are right, speakeasy, most tales involve consequences. Why didn't Nick let Juliette/Eve die as consequence for his mother's death and the destruction of the trailer?
It's my belief that it was for the same reason he hasn't done so up to the present, he isn't ready. To me, it's further evidence of the torturous conflict he has about killing her to avenge Kelly, Juliette should release him from that responsibility. Btw, I don't see the destruction of the trailer as an unforgivable act.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - irukandji - 05-22-2016
(05-22-2016, 10:43 AM)speakeasy Wrote: I am a fan of Juliette's, always have been, but I also believe she owes atonement to Nick. It would be a most compassionate act if she would do something to protect those with which she fights that would eliminate the necessity of Nick's actually having to bring down retribution to one he loved so deeply. It would do much to release the grevious burdens of her guilt of being instrumental in the killing of Kelly, and his of having to avenge her. There is no happy ending here, imo, just a sad kind of closure.
Of course, some really intelligent and imaginative scenario could be conceived to alter my pessimistic prognostication, I would really like that.
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote: You are right, speakeasy, most tales involve consequences. Why didn't Nick let Juliette/Eve die as consequence for his mother's death and the destruction of the trailer?
It's my belief that it was for the same reason he hasn't done so up to the present, he isn't ready. To me, it's further evidence of the torturous conflict he has about killing her to avenge Kelly, Juliette should release him from that responsibility. Btw, I don't see the destruction of the trailer as an unforgivable act.
I don't think Nick could be torturously conflicted and be a Grimm, speakeasy. To do so would reveal a considerable weakness within him. If he's weak, he couldn't do the things he does in order to be a Grimm.
For instance, consider Friday night's episode. Those were the brothers in blue Nick killed, fellow cops. You could say they were evil because Bonaparte was leading the pack there. But in reality, what did they do? They believed in BC, the wesen cause. Nick can not look at them as cops, and therefore cannot feel regret or remorse at their deaths. To him, this is war, they are wesen and they have to be eliminated. I think that's how he gets through killing. He simply views it as a war between Grimm and wesen. There's no room to regret that he killed a number of cops or feel any remorse over how that would impact their families.
Even though Nick confronted Eve about not having regret over his mother's death, I noticed he didn't pursue the argument. If she had said she was sorry, how would Nick register her apology? Would he believe her? I don't think it would even go that far. I don't think Nick is capable of registering an apology and here's why.
When Adalind told him she regretted what she did, did you see any spark that her apology went straight to Nick's heart? I didn't. She might as well have confided that she changed the tire on Juliette's car for all the effect it had on Nick.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - Dominico - 05-22-2016
Really good installment. Fantastic performances from the whole cast.
Just one teeny weeny niggle:
Please please please please please please do NOT let that stick thing have ANYTHING to do with bits from the cross of the Nazarene!
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - speakeasy - 05-22-2016
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote: You are right, speakeasy, most tales involve consequences. Why didn't Nick let Juliette/Eve die as consequence for his mother's death and the destruction of the trailer?
It's my belief that it was for the same reason he hasn't done so up to the present, he isn't ready. To me, it's further evidence of the torturous conflict he has about killing her to avenge Kelly, Juliette should release him from that responsibility. Btw, I don't see the destruction of the trailer as an unforgivable act.
[/quote]
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote: I don't think Nick could be torturously conflicted and be a Grimm, speakeasy. To do so would reveal a considerable weakness within him. If he's weak, he couldn't do the things he does in order to be a Grimm.
Most of us can compartmentalize and keep on functioning and that's what I feel about Nick's response to Juliette/Eve. Psychological conflicts don't always reveal themselves as weaknesses. They often provide the emotional energy that gets channeled toward other areas; in this case, perhaps his duties as a Grimm.
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote: For instance, consider Friday night's episode. Those were the brothers in blue Nick killed, fellow cops. You could say they were evil because Bonaparte was leading the pack there. But in reality, what did they do? They believed in BC, the wesen cause. Nick can not look at them as cops, and therefore cannot feel regret or remorse at their deaths. To him, this is war, they are wesen and they have to be eliminated. I think that's how he gets through killing. He simply views it as a war between Grimm and wesen. There's no room to regret that he killed a number of cops or feel any remorse over how that would impact their families.
Yes, Nick can be as cold hearted a killer as any so-called enemy he faces. The loss of the ability to consider the killing of any person, no matter how justified, to become just another body is a dangerous thing and he may be experiencing that emotional numbness now. But I still feel the complicated history with Juliette has not been worked through and has caused the conflict I mentioned within him.
(05-22-2016, 09:39 AM)irukandji Wrote: Even though Nick confronted Eve about not having regret over his mother's death, I noticed he didn't pursue the argument. If she had said she was sorry, how would Nick register her apology? Would he believe her? I don't think it would even go that far. I don't think Nick is capable of registering an apology and here's why.
When Adalind told him she regretted what she did, did you see any spark that her apology went straight to Nick's heart? I didn't. She might as well have confided that she changed the tire on Juliette's car for all the effect it had on Nick.
Because Adalind stands squarely in the middle of this terrible thing that has happened between the three, I can see how he would be hard-put to trust her into his heart. But I have to agree that Nick is too self-contained for his own good.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-22-2016
Nick appears to only be capable of exacting vengeance while in a rage. If he couldn't kill Juliette at the end of season 4, he's probably past thinking about her that way, and used to stick to save her because he has accepted her as an ally, though not a friend. I don't see him killing her unless she goes off the rails again and he has to do it to save someone from her.
If Eve/Juliette/whoever is going to end up dying to atone for her sins, she'll probably do it sacrificing herself to save Nick. Or, if the writers decide to go for maximum irony, maybe to save Adalind and the kids for Nick. She did tell him she'd try to keep his son from harm, after all.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - Robyn - 05-22-2016
I didn’t see Nick use intelligence, strategy or leadership to circumvent any of Bonaparte’s moves. Nick spent the episode fighting himself out of predicaments he fell into either because of his own doings or Bonaparte maneuvering him into situations.
I get that the writers were excited about their fight scenes being exciting for viewers, but give me a reason that the end result wouldn’t be the same without those fight scenes.
The end result would have been the same if Nick had stayed home all day and waited for BC to arrive. HW saved Hank and no one would have needed to save Nick if he hadn’t gotten himself arrested. And since Diana killed Bonaparte, Nick didn’t even have to be home unless killing the henchmen is considered important.
For that matter, if Diana had her epiphany earlier, she could have used Renard to kill Bonaparte before Meisner was mortally wounded. I would have preferred seeing more of the changing dynamic between Diana and Adalind as Diana came to understand that Bonaparte is a bad man that needs to die - or whatever her motivation was.
(05-22-2016, 07:15 AM)irukandji Wrote: My thoughts for next season------no girlfriend, no live in domestic, no wife, no nothing for Nick.Nick needs to offer Juliette his friendship. The last thing she needs is for a man from her past to want to start things up again.
Nick needs to be alone. He's the poorest choice for husband, partner, whatever, that any woman could make.
No offense to anyone hoping for a Juliette redemption scene, but this is the last thing I want to see. I don't want to see her romantically linked to Nick. I'd rather see her back at HW. While Eve wasn't the greatest thing to hit Grimm, I liked her doing her own thing *away* from Nick. I liked her setting herself apart from Nick.
Quote:Could you imagine if he'd have gotten his way and baby Kelly was there amidst all that BC fracas in the fome? Despite what Nick demands, he has no means whatsoever to care for a baby. He proved that to everyone in the last episode.I can imagine. But if history is any indication Nick’s friends won’t see that side of it, they’ll only focus on Adalind hurting Nick/not putting Nick first.
Adalind made her choice a few weeks back. She chose her children over Nick. That's where she needs to be, with them.
(05-22-2016, 07:58 AM)speakeasy Wrote: I gave up my hopes for a reunion between J and N long ago. Where we differ in our response to the character is you see her as an independent and capable person who should be able to go on as circumstances have defined her. She is that. But I always run into the wall of what she did out of pain and anger, then I feel she should be accountable, not by Nick, but by the dictates of her own decent character. Juliette is a sorrowful example of bad things happening to good people, imo. Just can't see Grimm ending with her still alive.My thoughts usually go to Monroe when characters or viewers talk about past sins, untrustworthiness, and need for atonement. Monroe's violent past has been established by the show. His acts against strangers (to the characters & viewers) seem to be as violent and severe as anything Juliette and Adalind have done. The defining difference between his bad acts and those of Juliette & Adalind is that his were committed off screen and weren't perpetrated against a Team Grimm member.
Monroe has atoned in the only way that has any significant casual effect - he works hard at not repeating previous behavior and respects/cares for those in his life. That’s all any of us can do at the end of the day.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - speakeasy - 05-22-2016
The season ends with most of those BCers who planned to kill Nick and his group dead. The BC North precinct police officers who set up Hank, the two goons who were staking out Rosalee and Monroe, the thug BC Police officers who attacked Nick's place, that mook Bonaparte, Rachel (because she was in on the whole plan to take over power), and a commendable number of casualties at the hands of Meisner and Wu.
There was only one important soldier down on the HW/Scoobie side, Meisner, and some very unfortunate bystanders; all killed by Black Claw - especially heinous was the murdering of that old lady who lived across the way from Hank. HW and Nick's group didn't put a single civilian in harm's way. I'd say the best laid plans of Bonaparte did not have the expected outcome. They will have to regroup just as much as will the Scoobies. All in all, I'd say Nick and company came out way ahead in that scuffle. And as important as it is to acknowledge that Nick didn't engineer a master strategy, but conducted a war of offence (complicated by having to figure out what the enemy was doing), overall he was at the helm and his directives were followed by his troops. Having them all meet at his place was his idea and probably saved them, they were targets for elimination. Diana's part was significant also, but imo, was a complement to, and not a irreplaceable component of, their field success.
Even though the group is not out of the woods yet, those BCers are just as dead.
Something else should be pointed out here; Nick's unmistakable act of heroism in staying behind to give the others a chance to get away. Imo, there can be no more testimony to an agape and philia kind love for one's friends than to offer one's life for them. In my book, he's not as self-concerned as some think.
Monroe's atonement has its foundation in past history. He's a worthy man, but his story isn't quite the same as Juliette's. Her betrayal was against her former partner in life, and by extension, his friends.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - Hexenadler - 05-22-2016
(05-22-2016, 07:15 AM)irukandji Wrote: No offense to anyone hoping for a Juliette redemption scene, but this is the last thing I want to see. I don't want to see her romantically linked to Nick. I'd rather see her back at HW.
PLEASE NO. Didn't the last couple of episodes prove these guys are completely forgettable buffoons? Why on earth would you want them back? They didn't receive any characterization beyond Meisner (a self-righteous woman-beating brute), and besides fulfilling all the usual cliches of being a top-secret organization (i.e. stare at computer screens all day like a bunch of noobs), they accomplished nothing other than sucking up precious screen time. I've been praying throughout the entire season to see HW fall, and I almost whooped with joy when it finally happened.
HW was a waste of time. Eve was a waste of time. Dragging both into S6 would be a catastrophic mistake. As for Juliette's redemption, I'd be more interested to see a relative of one of the families who were slaughtered by Kenneth's thugs kidnap Juliette and force her to confront her guilt in the most brutal way possible. Obviously she needs to make up with Nick big time, but it's the fact her betrayal also resulted in the massacre of innocent civilians that gets under my skin.
RE: S5E21/22 - The Beginning of the End - irukandji - 05-23-2016
(05-22-2016, 10:30 AM)New Guy Wrote: FrankenEve has yet to repent, express real remorse to Nick and ask him to forgive her. She needs to woman up confess and take responsibility for what she did.
New Guy
New Guy, I think any apology Eve would make would be completely lost on Nick. I don't think he's capable of understanding regret or remorse. That's why he didn't react at all to Adalind's apology. Not that it was much of an apology, but she did express regret.