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+---- Thread: S5E20 - Bad Night (/Thread-S5E20-Bad-Night)
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - speakeasy - 05-16-2016
(05-16-2016, 03:44 PM)syscrash Wrote: What people forget Nick is not fighting BC. He is fighting and idea, wesen no longer having to hide in the shadows. Like Sean said It does not matter what they do the idea is not going to die. Wesen will come out of the shadows. We have seen more wesen exposure in this season then in the entire run of the show. There is no way season 6 could be anything other then wesen out of the shadows. What people also fail to realise that there is no winner in this fight. Having the most powerful asset does not give you and advantage. Like Lucian said you may win the battle but you won't win the war. This is not the kind of conflict that can be resolved in a head to head battle with winner take all.
If this were a freedom fighter type of conflict I would be on the side of the wesen. Who the heck willingly wears the yoke of oppression. The peaceful demand for civil rights could be made by the wesen population, and freely given by those outside the protesting group in recognition that it's the right thing to do - by using a country's legal system to get it done. Wesen have been operating within the societal system as long as have the kehrsiete and it would be an arduous task, but it would be the right way to go about change. But the engine driving this uprising, imo, is retribution. Not a righteous demand for recognition of the constitutional guarantees accruing to all citizens born in their various countries, but the absolute resolve to take what they want by force. That's a textbook definition of war.
(05-16-2016, 03:44 PM)syscrash Wrote: I see the biggest problem is viewers have the distorted view of BC. Wesen's basic argument is, we are wesen with abilities we should not have to hide. We should be able to use what ever abilities we where given.
Many viewers see the BC position as being apocalyptic for humans. BC has never said they wanted to eliminate humans. BC said persecute us we eliminate you. People have posted concerns about humans reactions of knowing about wesen. Problem shoot a wesen out of fear that is murder. You try a fight a wesen they will kill you. No where has it been stated the avocation of wesen going after humans. The concern is humans going after wesen. That is where the blood shed would come from. Think logically why would wesen need to eliminate humans. Wesen are stronger, faster, and better at their given talent then any human. Without having to hide they will dominate.
Because one of the stated mission aims of BC is to dominate humans, to take away their freedom of self-governance. From where I stand, there already is a war underway - the things BC has done to date are the first volleys by which they prepare the battlefield for troop combat. I never saw this threat as an attempt to rid the world of humans, only to subjugate them.
With their movement in full swing, I'm thinking a bloody clash is inevitable. The time to negotiate the terms of a cease fire will come when one side surrenders.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - syscrash - 05-16-2016
Quote:If this were a freedom fighter type of conflict I would be on the side of the wesen. Who the heck willingly wears the yoke of oppression. The peaceful demand for civil rights could be made by the wesen population, and freely given by those outside the protesting group in recognition that it's the right thing to do - by using a country's legal system to get it done. Wesen have been operating within the societal system as long as have the kehrsiete and it would be an arduous task, but it would be the right way to go about change. But the engine driving this uprising, imo, is retribution. Not a righteous demand for recognition of the constitutional guarantees accruing to all citizens born in their various countries, but the absolute resolve to take what they want by force. That's a textbook definition of war.That is an idealistic view. All gains for freedom have come with the shedding of blood. That changes are able to be made within the system only exist because of blood shed in the past. You point out demand for recognition of the constitutional guarantees. Our constitution has proclaimed all people guaranteed equal rights. Yet from the day it was drafted that has not been true. Even today there are groups of people still dying to the right to be considered equal. I say dying i am not only referring during demonstrations, but I also include the deaths because a certain group refuses to hide who they are.
The idea of dominating or subjugate a group of people is exactly what each political party is doing. Each side feels the other side is persecuting them for their beliefs. Both sides are dealing with ideas that determine life and death.
As with all modern conflicts the solution will be a compromise. The reason we no longer fight for something. The fight is for an idea. You can't beat and idea. As long as one person lives so does the idea. If you are fighting for something then you have somewhere to plant your flag and clam it as yours. If does not matter how many people want what you are fighting for. Only one side can own it.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - irukandji - 05-16-2016
(05-16-2016, 10:25 AM)Vance60 Wrote: That is a very good point about street resources and something I didn't pick up on.
Thank you for the nice compliment, Vance. There are many here who believe Nick is a good cop, but one of the earmarks of a good cop are the resources they have at their disposal. Because they know so many people, they can think their way out of the box.
That's why it was rather surprising to me that Renard caved when Kelly wanted to get her hands on baby Diana. Renard, as a police captain, would have many, many resources at his disposal to safely hide both Diana and Adalind. And him being the smooze talker of the group, I have no doubt he could have talked Adalind into hiding.
Nick's reaction in this particular instance also continues to astonish me because he showed such complete and utter stupidity. He entrusts a special baby to his mother, a person he hardly knows and who he hadn't seen in 20 years because he was told she was dead. As a policeman, his primary concern should be for both mother and baby. Diana would have been better off with her mother. Nick, as an experienced detective, would have seen hundreds of domestic cases. His sixth sense should have been flagging a thousand red flags at him when Kelly was talking him into giving her Diana.
(05-16-2016, 10:25 AM)Vance60 Wrote: I think the Henrietta character was killed off to soon (and easily for that matter).
I agree. I actually think Henrietta and Juliette would have made a terrifc storyline for Grimm. I've always been interested in the magical component of Grimm. That's a main reason I watch the series. I would have liked seeing Henrietta train Juliette. I also have a feeling she wouldn't take a lot of crap from Juliette either.
(05-16-2016, 10:25 AM)Vance60 Wrote: I'm really interested ]to see how the writers are going to deal with the Diana character and her behaviour. It wears a bit thin when season after season ends with nothing but doom and gloom for the main character(s). I don't expect anything different this time around but it would be nice for a change to see Nick and the scoobies getting the upper hand, (even if only slightly) Well, I can dream can't I?....lol.
I for one would like to see Nick become a stronger more dominant character. Monroe and Rosalee are great resources, but they are beginning to wear thin in my opinion. They just can't possibly know everything about everything, yet that's what we're led to believe from week to week.
I would also like to see Nick leave the force. Obviously with Renard still in the captain's seat, there's no way Nick can continue to work under him. As a more dominant character, I would like to see Nick recruit more people to his side, including more humans. This war is about exterminating humans. Yet how many humans are even being told about it?
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - syscrash - 05-16-2016
you can not sight one example where
Quote:This war is about exterminating humans.
was stated on implied. dominate does not mean exterminate. dominate does not even man imprisoning. The show has made BC view simple. Wesen no longer want to hide, and be able to be wesen. Being wesen and able to use their enhanced abilities they would dominate. No different then one group dominates another now.
Wsen have no reason to kill humans. Able to be wesen they can beat humans at anything they do.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - irukandji - 05-16-2016
(05-16-2016, 06:32 PM)syscrash Wrote: you can not sight one example where
Quote:This war is about exterminating humans.
was stated on implied. dominate does not mean exterminate. dominate does not even man imprisoning. The show has made BC view simple. Wesen no longer want to hide, and be able to be wesen. Being wesen and able to use their enhanced abilities they would dominate. No different then one group dominates another now.
Wsen have no reason to kill humans. Able to be wesen they can beat humans at anything they do.
No, I distinctly recall some kind of a statement in Grimm about ending humanity. Sean just said something similar in last week's statement. Humans have ruined the world. Wesen want to retake it back and remake it into something more violent. Any wesen standing in their way is going to be killed. Humans will just be wiped out so wesen can take over. I don't think this is going to be some kind of peaceful takeover. There will be bloodshed.
I also don't believe that wesen can beat humans at anything they do. If that was the case, wesen would have been the dominant force all along. Wesens lose their humanity when they woge.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - speakeasy - 05-16-2016
speakeasy wrote:
Quote:If this were a freedom fighter type of conflict I would be on the side of the wesen. Who the heck willingly wears the yoke of oppression. The peaceful demand for civil rights could be made by the wesen population, and freely given by those outside the protesting group in recognition that it's the right thing to do - by using a country's legal system to get it done. Wesen have been operating within the societal system as long as have the kehrsiete and it would be an arduous task, but it would be the right way to go about change. But the engine driving this uprising, imo, is retribution. Not a righteous demand for recognition of the constitutional guarantees accruing to all citizens born in their various countries, but the absolute resolve to take what they want by force. That's a textbook definition of war.
(05-16-2016, 06:13 PM)syscrash Wrote: That is an idealistic view. All gains for freedom have come with the shedding of blood. That changes are able to be made within the system only exist because of blood shed in the past. You point out demand for recognition of the constitutional guarantees. Our constitution has proclaimed all people guaranteed equal rights. Yet from the day it was drafted that has not been true. Even today there are groups of people still dying to the right to be considered equal. I say dying i am not only referring during demonstrations, but I also include the deaths because a certain group refuses to hide who they are.
The idea of dominating or subjugate a group of people is exactly what each political party is doing. Each side feels the other side is persecuting them for their beliefs. Both sides are dealing with ideas that determine life and death.
As with all modern conflicts the solution will be a compromise. The reason we no longer fight for something. The fight is for an idea. You can't beat and idea. As long as one person lives so does the idea. If you are fighting for something then you have somewhere to plant your flag and clam it as yours. If does not matter how many people want what you are fighting for. Only one side can own it.
Syscrash, that is a thoughtful answer to my post, but if mine is an idealistic view, yours is a cynical one.
The comparison of what's taking place in the world of Grimm to the current political conditions that are dangerously dividing our country today is a fair one, but I'm addressing my posts to a fictional situation and confining my responses to it alone. In real life I largely agree with you.
And yes, in this show it may be that an idea has taken hold of many wesen that they will fight for the right to come out of the shadows and live their lives as nature intended. Unfortunately, those at the top of this uprising have a different target in their sights; and I believe it's becoming the masters of humankind (that's what makes BC the enemy in my view). It's not a new notion among our races, in fact, it's written most of the history of human evolution so far.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - FaceInTheCrowd - 05-16-2016
My guess is that the upper echelons of BC are really nothing more than a wesen would-be royal family, and their lower level followers the new pan-wesen verrat.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - syscrash - 05-16-2016
In the context of the show. Wesen are the strongest species. That strength is what they wont to be able to use to maintain dominance. It as the same as playground bully. You know you can't win in a fight so you go along and give up your lunch money. Just like the riot at the beginning of season 5. What would have stopped them. You can not fight a wesen and win. Wesen live by a simple rule survival of the fittest.
When you try and argue using societies expectations then you run into why Sean made the statement about Kehrseite's have ruined things.
There is a deep statement the show is making. The statement is Kehrseite's and their laws, rules, and practices are creating a world that is uninhabitable. The truth is we can not sustain the current direction of progress. What the show is saying maybe going back to where we are governed by laws of nature is what is need to be able to imagine a society that exist centuries from now. those laws are violent and primitive because life is violent and primitive. People forget we are meant to die. Or technology completely alters that objective. The one thing that is not in dispute left to its own device this planet would exist forever. It operates on simple rules that maintain a natural balance. It is man and only man that violates these rules sending this plant on a path of extinction.
From an entertainment perspective wesen being wesen keeps the show from having to create lame excuses and rational for what they do.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - speakeasy - 05-16-2016
(05-16-2016, 07:52 PM)syscrash Wrote: In the context of the show. Wesen are the strongest species. That strength is what they wont to be able to use to maintain dominance. It as the same as playground bully. You know you can't win in a fight so you go along and give up your lunch money. Just like the riot at the beginning of season 5. What would have stopped them. You can not fight a wesen and win. Wesen live by a simple rule survival of the fittest.
When you try and argue using societies expectations then you run into why Sean made the statement about Kehrseite's have ruined things.
There is a deep statement the show is making. The statement is Kehrseite's and their laws, rules, and practices are creating a world that is uninhabitable. The truth is we can not sustain the current direction of progress. What the show is saying maybe going back to where we are governed by laws of nature is what is need to be able to imagine a society that exist centuries from now. those laws are violent and primitive because life is violent and primitive. People forget we are meant to die. Or technology completely alters that objective. The one thing that is not in dispute left to its own device this planet would exist forever. It operates on simple rules that maintain a natural balance. It is man and only man that violates these rules sending this plant on a path of extinction.
From an entertainment perspective wesen being wesen keeps the show from having to create lame excuses and rational for what they do.
This planet will have a finite time of life just as the star it orbits has; it will not go on forever.
Going back to a primitive and violent existence on Earth is one option. I prefer the one in which, before we arrive at the place where overpopulation brings on a fight for limited resources, we will have developed the technology to colonize another rocky planet with the required H20 and atmospheric conditions suitable for human habitation.
RE: S5E20 - Bad Night - irukandji - 05-16-2016
(05-16-2016, 07:52 PM)syscrash Wrote: In the context of the show. Wesen are the strongest species. That strength is what they wont to be able to use to maintain dominance.
There is a deep statement the show is making. The statement is Kehrseite's and their laws, rules, and practices are creating a world that is uninhabitable. The truth is we can not sustain the current direction of progress.
But when wesen use their strength for dominance, they lose IQ points. The more they use that strength, the more IQ points are lost. Eventually, they go insane and cannot resort back to being human. Sean says he wants a primitive and violent world. If that's the case, why is he retreating to luxury and comfort in a mansion? He should be camping out in his backyard and living off the land. He's a hypocrite if he tells Nick a violent and primitive world is the answer, yet he has no intention of living primitively.