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+--- Thread: Keys (/Thread-Keys)
RE: Keys - irukandji - 01-11-2022
You are right. The Venetians were going along. Someone had to have experience enough to steer the fleet. The Venetians ordered the crusaders to attack Zara or they wouldn't sail. So I guess that could also be added to this perfect storm of a mess. The crusaders were excommunicated but the leaders got it lifted. I think with, regard to Zara, the pope thought it through and looked at the practical side. Did the crusaders sack Constantinople before the excommunication was lifted? That would be a practical solution for them. After all, they were already in deep, so why not go a little deeper. The pope certainly couldn't do any more to them, and it was still his crusade.
Constantinople was sacked before the pope even knew about it. The sacking paid the crusaders debt. There was no crusade. Excommunication is forgivable.
RE: Keys - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-11-2022
The sack of Zara was 1202, with the Pope's threat of excommunication issued prior to the attack. The excommunication was early in 1203 and the forgiveness late in 1203. The sack of Constantinople was 1204, but they laid siege and restored that deposed emperor in 1203. There's no mention of the Pope knowing anything about what the crusaders were doing in Constantinople prior to it happening, and from what I can find it wasn't until 800 years later that the Church expressed any official regret over it. So it appears the Church just swept Constantinople under the rug at the time and pretended it didn't happen.
RE: Keys - irukandji - 01-11-2022
That's right. The pope didn't know anything about the Constantinople sack until after it had occurred. He did, however, know of the attack on Zara before it happened. He threatened and then went through with the excommunication for the attack on Zara.
RE: Keys - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-11-2022
Would be interesting to know what kind of conversations went on in the Vatican after Constantinople. I wonder if it was anything like modern heads of state trying to figure out what kind of PR spin will result from what they say about something.
RE: Keys - irukandji - 01-12-2022
I was wondering what kind of conversations went on up to, and after the attack on Zara. The french crusaders were the ones who wanted these ships built. From what I understand, the plan was then to seize Egypt and that would somehow make it easier to take Jerusalem back.
This was the pope's crusade. I would think he would have known about the plan and how the french planned to make it happen. Certainly there would be questions of finance. Or does he just sit back and let the crusaders handle it in their own way?
RE: Keys - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-12-2022
I expect the Pope probably outlined the goal and gave final approval to plans submitted to him. But considering that communication was limited to messengers on horseback at best, it would be days to get a message from Rome to Venice, longer to other countries, and once the ships had set sail, forget about it. And if anyone made an unauthorized change without first seeking approval, Rome wouldn't know a thing about it until after the fact. So if the Church had any concerns about PR, the conversations about every bit of news would be whether to bless it, condemn it or pretend it had never arrived.
RE: Keys - irukandji - 01-12-2022
So the pope excommunicates the Venetians and the crusaders involved on the attack on Zara, and at the same time saves face.
RE: Keys - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-12-2022
Yes. Zara was Catholic, under the supposed protection of both the Church and the King of Hungary who was a crusader himself, so crusaders sacking it would probably have been a big embarrassment to the Pope. Constantinople, by contrast, was Eastern Orthodox, Christian but not Catholic.
RE: Keys - irukandji - 01-14-2022
And the pope was initially pleased with the attack on Constantinople as it pointed toward the Roman Catholic church uniting the city under its doctrine. It was only when he found out the destruction leveled on the city that he condemned the action and cancelled the crusade, but did not follow through with excommunication. In my opinion, the pope was once again weighing the practicality of the situation and saving face at the same time.
RE: Keys - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-15-2022
I suppose there's only so many times that a Pope can condemn his own crusaders before nobody takes either the Pope or the Crusades seriously anymore.