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+--- Thread: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? (/Thread-Will-Nick-and-the-crew-join-or-ally-with-HW)
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-03-2016
Just to create a different thinking about this question.
Why should Nick join HW? Why shouldn’t he join BC?
BC is just a group of wesen fighting for what they believe. It is they believe they have the right to show themselves public and that shouldn’t hide in the dark. BC just believes they have the right to use their full wesen strength and capabilities to conquer what they think they deserve. What is wrong with it?
Why is HW “greater good” better then BC “greater good”?
This question is because I know there viewers questioning HW means and thinking that maybe BC is the least worst guys. But to define it?
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - speakeasy - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 08:34 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Just to create a different thinking about this question.
Why should Nick join HW? Why shouldn’t he join BC?
BC is just a group of wesen fighting for what they believe. It is they believe they have the right to show themselves public and that shouldn’t hide in the dark. BC just believes they have the right to use their full wesen strength and capabilities to conquer what they think they deserve. What is wrong with it?
Why is HW “greater good” better then BC “greater good”?
This question is because I know there viewers questioning HW means and thinking that maybe BC is the least worst guys. But to define it?
Because they murdered (to instill fear) a shop owner during the Wesen Naucht, are out to eliminate Grimms (that may need some fact checking), they assassinated the Wesen Council illegally, and their real goal is to establish Wesen rule, to name a few. If this were a movement which was solely to claim the right to live as themselves publicly, then I would support it. Until that is shown to be the primary reason for this war, then those reasons listed above are what I base my opinion on.
HW is no gathering of angels. Secret ops and dirty tricks and even worse crimes against humanity can be laid at their door. Just as I've stated before, they appear to be the lesser of two evils. If it were to surface that they intend to annihilate all wesen, 'for the greater good', then all bets are off. Nick would never go along with that. A threat by one group to sieze the power to decide for the rest is a threat to liberty.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 08:57 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Because they murdered (to instill fear) a shop owner during the Wesen Naucht, are out to eliminate Grimms (that may need some fact checking), they assassinated the Wesen Council illegally, and their real goal is to establish Wesen rule, to name a few. If this were a movement which was solely to claim the right to live as themselves publicly, then I would support it. Until that is shown to be the primary reason for this war, then those reasons listed above are what I base my opinion on.
HW is no gathering of angels. Secret ops and dirty tricks and even worse crimes against humanity can be laid at their door. Just as I've stated before, they appear to be the lesser of two evils. If it were to surface that they intend to annihilate all wesen, 'for the greater good', then all bets are off. Nick would never go along with that. A threat by one group to sieze the power to decide for the rest is a threat to liberty.
Hi speakeasy…
Thanks for your post. First I would like to say that I agree with your opinion. But sometimes I like to try to look in other directions trying to see new things.
For example, correct me if I am wrong… but If my memories are correct… Eve was the one who said BC wants to rule the world. From BC members I have just listen that they want freedom to live as wesen. Do you remember a scene where a BC member says something different?
How can Nick be sure that HW is telling the truth about BC objectives?
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - panther19 - 03-03-2016
Hi All,
Eve compared BC to Hitler wanting to rule the world. What about the humans. They do exist in Grimm - Hank, Wu
and Nick, even tho he's a Grimm. I don't recall Meisner being a wesen. Did I miss something? I think it's still a
fight of good against evil. In war there are soldiers on both sides. They kill each. Who the good guys are depends on
whose side you are on. "Taking over the World" imo designates evil.
panther19
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - speakeasy - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 09:26 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(03-03-2016, 08:57 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Because they murdered (to instill fear) a shop owner during the Wesen Naucht, are out to eliminate Grimms (that may need some fact checking), they assassinated the Wesen Council illegally, and their real goal is to establish Wesen rule, to name a few. If this were a movement which was solely to claim the right to live as themselves publicly, then I would support it. Until that is shown to be the primary reason for this war, then those reasons listed above are what I base my opinion on.
HW is no gathering of angels. Secret ops and dirty tricks and even worse crimes against humanity can be laid at their door. Just as I've stated before, they appear to be the lesser of two evils. If it were to surface that they intend to annihilate all wesen, 'for the greater good', then all bets are off. Nick would never go along with that. A threat by one group to sieze the power to decide for the rest is a threat to liberty.
Hi speakeasy…
Thanks for your post. First I would like to say that I agree with your opinion. But sometimes I like to try to look in other directions trying to see new things.
For example, correct me if I am wrong… but If my memories are correct… Eve was the one who said BC wants to rule the world. From BC members I have just listen that they want freedom to live as wesen. Do you remember a scene where a BC member says something different?
How can Nick be sure that HW is telling the truth about BC objectives?
In another post I acknowledged that it was Eve who said that the goal of the BC was to install wesen rule, and I don't trust her either. Doesn't mean she can't make accurate statements, though, only that we must not take them a face value. In this case, when I put it together with other things about BC, I choose to believe her. That's one example.
Secondly, I am using my own interpretation of the assassination of the emergency gathering of the Wesen Council. De Groot said that the uprisers were growing in power all over the globe and this was war. The Code of Swabia states that wesen are forbidden to use their wesen side to take advantage of, harm, or kill, kehresite. That's why the BC murdered the WC members, to nullify that wesen law. I interpret that to qualify as an act of war against all non-wesen.
Thirdly, the intimidation of Xavier into drawing Monroe into a lethal trap set by the BC to use him as an example of what would happen to wesen who befriend Grimms did it for me. BC doesn't want wesen interacting peaceably with Grimms, period. They haven't shown any activity demonstrating a willingness to cooperate with kehrsiete that I can recall, they are after an overthrow, imo. So, no, I haven't heard a member of Black Claw state the group aims at replacing existing systems of governance with BC rule, but their actions speak to me that way. It's a funny thing with uprisings, they have layers. Those on the top layer usually have an agenda that is behind the more obvious grievances of those who constitute the larger second tier.
I also enjoy the back and forth of opinions, Adriano, and I shouldn't bring it up again, but even though I don't have such a stellar record of the accuracy of my ideas, I never shut up anyway.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - syscrash - 03-03-2016
[quote]
Just to create a different thinking about this question.
Why should Nick join HW? Why shouldn’t he join BC?
BC is just a group of wesen fighting for what they believe. It is they believe they have the right to show themselves public and that shouldn’t hide in the dark. BC just believes they have the right to use their full wesen strength and capabilities to conquer what they think they deserve. What is wrong with it?
Why is HW “greater good” better then BC “greater good”?
This question is because I know there viewers questioning HW means and thinking that maybe BC is the least worst guys. But to define it?
[quote]
I see it as that is the exact question the writers want the viewers to ask. I see the writers have created several levels of right and wrong. On one level BC is fighting for what would be civil rights, the rights to be who they are what ever that includes. The writers off set that moral position by making their methods violent. This create a good evil dichotomy. The writers give them the Hitler jersey so we know which team they are on.
I see HW as "for the greater good", like our real past many things where done in the name of "for the greater good". I see this as the justification they will use to inact their "Minority Report" approach. The elimination of BC members for what they will do. As in "Minority Report" are you the savior or a murderer. The writers will give them the hero jersey showing all the lives they saved.
In prior season we say Nick solving crimes that had occurred. We will now see the investigation and elimination of threats. Like in James Bond movies, that kind of perspective opens up for more graphic action packed scenes. The very first official acts HW does is, Eve takes out 20 wesen. That could not happen in a police procedural format. I see this why the writers say the show is changing. Less law and order more James Bond.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 12:57 PM)syscrash Wrote: I see it as that is the exact question the writers want the viewers to ask. I see the writers have created several levels of right and wrong. On one level BC is fighting for what would be civil rights, the rights to be who they are what ever that includes. The writers off set that moral position by making their methods violent. This create a good evil dichotomy. The writers give them the Hitler jersey so we know which team they are on.
I see HW as "for the greater good", like our real past many things where done in the name of "for the greater good". I see this as the justification they will use to inact their "Minority Report" approach. The elimination of BC members for what they will do. As in "Minority Report" are you the savior or a murderer. The writers will give them the hero jersey showing all the lives they saved.
In prior season we say Nick solving crimes that had occurred. We will now see the investigation and elimination of threats. Like in James Bond movies, that kind of perspective opens up for more graphic action packed scenes. The very first official acts HW does is, Eve takes out 20 wesen. That could not happen in a police procedural format. I see this why the writers say the show is changing. Less law and order more James Bond.
I agree the writers want the viewers to ask this. But why do you ask only about BC?
Why don't you ask about HW too?
HW threatened an innocent American civilian to join their army (I am talking about when Chavez first kidnapped Trubel).
HW illegally spyed a Portland police officer. (Trubel have said HW monitored Nick).
HW illegally kidnapped Juliette and somehow (not explained the methods) converted her in a weapon soldier.
Just to talk about Eve, what will happen when BC is ended?
HW illegally killed killed more than 20 wesen, kidnapped and tortured one.
HW is better because it is for the greater good... By the eyes of many wesen HW greater good is society where wesens are second level civilians that should hide. HW is not fighting for a balanced society where wesen and not wesen could live in harmony.
By wesen perspective actual society in Grimm is a society that supports grimm crimes against wesens and oppressive laws from wesen council.
Conclusion : why should we ask only BC? What does it make HW better (inside the show)?
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - speakeasy - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 12:57 PM)syscrash Wrote: I see HW as "for the greater good", like our real past many things where done in the name of "for the greater good". I see this as the justification they will use to inact their "Minority Report" approach. The elimination of BC members for what they will do. As in "Minority Report" are you the savior or a murderer. The writers will give them the hero jersey showing all the lives they saved.
In prior season we say Nick solving crimes that had occurred. We will now see the investigation and elimination of threats. Like in James Bond movies, that kind of perspective opens up for more graphic action packed scenes. The very first official acts HW does is, Eve takes out 20 wesen. That could not happen in a police procedural format. I see this why the writers say the show is changing. Less law and order more James Bond.
Eve did save the guys from being outnumbered and possibly killed in that operation which was a trap set by BC. Besides, once a threat has been identified, the best approach may often be preemptive. I'm not advocating rounding up suspects and eliminating them in the false claim of it being for the greater good. Just simply out-strategizing the opposition where possible.
And you're right, I think, in guessing that things will down and dirty from here on out because this is a big deal, not the usual week to week showdowns we are used to seeing. It may come down to who's the smartest, and we know that Nick and the Scoobies are battle-tested veterans of this kind of clashes with lawbreaking wesen; I feel they will outsmart the other side by exposing the nasty underbelly of their cause.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Robyn - 03-03-2016
I’m wondering if & how much Nick’s decision to join HW, and to what degree, is connected to Claire Coffee’s statement that -
Spoiler :
Is Nick compelled to become an active participant in HW or does it give him pause? Or is his decision independent of Adalind? CC doesn’t hint whether the affect on the family is positive or negative.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - jsgrimm45 - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 03:21 PM)Robyn Wrote: I’m wondering if & how much Nick’s decision to join HW, and to what degree, is connected to Claire Coffee’s statement that -Not wanting to break the spoiler I can see the way this is very positive for them. You had the answer in one of your other posts.
Is Nick compelled to become an active participant in HW or does it give him pause? Or is his decision independent of Adalind? CC doesn’t hint whether the affect on the family is positive or negative.