+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Grimm Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Discussions)
+--- Thread: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? (/Thread-Will-Nick-and-the-crew-join-or-ally-with-HW)
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - irukandji - 02-29-2016
(02-29-2016, 05:09 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: I agree that now the books are Nicks and not HW. I haven't made up my mind on HW.
I really haven't either. I could be completely wrong on my thoughts about them. Something just doesn't mesh with them. It would be nice if we knew exactly what Black Claw was all about. That might help me put HW into perspective.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - syscrash - 02-29-2016
The show has laid out what BC and HW's agenda's are.
BC agenda is to be able to live openly as wesen.
The problem is this includes, with all of their customs and rituals. Even the barbaric ones. As wesen they are at the top of the food chain and willing to use their abilities to prove it. They will be the freedom fighters using terrorist methods.
HW agenda is simple to eradicate BC. The problem is they believe do what needed for the better good. If killing wesen will save lives so be it. If putting wesen in concentration camps to protect the public so be it. The problem with the eradication of any group, it would include the misguided, and the forced participants. Also it would not include jailing the participants. Because it is a war of ideas. In jail out of jail there beliefs would spread. The only solution is eradication. HW will be saving humanity using peoples fear to justify their actions. Actions that are a clear violation of civil rights. It will be framed "for the better good".
Nick will work to find a middle ground between the two. As an example of HW philosophy using real life examples. The Japaneses interment camps. The McCarthy hearings. The NSA, And most recently build a wall let mexico pay for it. These all sounded like and framed as ideas to keep us safe, ideas for the better good.
On the BC side, using real life examples, you have The Branch Davidian, The followers of Timothy McVeigh, The pro life with clinic bombings, we will throw in the KKK and other supremacy groups. Like BC they have their beliefs and willing to die for them. Even the KKK has a right to want purity of the race, they just can't go hanging people to get it. Just like the government can't drive a tank through the WACO compound killing women and children.
As with my examples is our government the good guys or the bad. What about the groups defending their beliefs.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 02-29-2016
(02-29-2016, 05:09 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: The idea of the royals for Alexander is a good question. It would be the test as to if the Royals are behind BC. I don't see the bounty hunters helping Alexander if he can't pay them. Alexander would be a big help to HW so Meisner would be interested. He could help protect Rosalee when Monroe and Nick go to Europe.
You are right. The bounty hunters would help Alexander only if he can pay... but (there is always a but....)
I don't think BC needs to pay for a bounty hunter. They have an army of people that fight for a cause. And who knows if the bounty hunters are being hunted by BC? They killed wesen that disobeyed the council and BC killed the council. It wouldn't be hard for the writers to create a situation where the hunters join Alexander for self surviving. And.... BC is bad for their business.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - speakeasy - 02-29-2016
Black Claw is a covert movement, they are waging a worldwide revolution. If Eve is to be believed the group's goal is a world run by wesen. We've seen that this uprising has been building for a long time and in many countries. It's organized and funded and it has a plan. This constitutes a threat to the peace of the world of Grimm just as surely as any real world country performing acts of aggression against its neighbors would.
Imo, it is logical and fitting that the governments of the world would be aware of this activity and would be the best organizations to deal with it. In this case, also in a covert way - as far as the everyday world knows, they don't exist. I feel that HW is just as much of a government-run program as ever, with many civilian workers filling its ranks. Meisner himself said that Hadrian's Wall and the uprising they are determined to stop is much bigger than the Resistance, that's why he threw in with them. The Command Center in Portland is just one of many located around the world according to him and they have impressive resources for tracking the enemy - Hank said he wished the PPB had their computer data banks and systems. The fact that this task force has real money behind it was demonstrated when Nick and Monroe asked for a hundred thousand dollars for the trunk contents and Meisner said he would try to get it. I believe they are the real deal and the lesser of two evils.
I feel Trubel is still loyal to Nick and at the same time believes in the cause of HW. Yes, their methods are questionable, but this is war. Imo, Nick will never be anything but an independent thinker whether he joins forces with HW or merely allies himself with them. What I can't see is him or the Scoobies not joining in the fight to stop this uprising.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 02-29-2016
(02-29-2016, 05:13 PM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:There’s nothing that demonstrates scenes/episodes would be any different if the Chavez character hadn’t died.Lets start with the phone. Meisner cares nothing about security. Had no idea who Nick was told him keep the phone. Nick has been using it ever since. No thumb print needed. Chavez would not even tell Nick who and what HW was. Meisner lets who ever through the front door.
Chavez would not even tell Nick if they had Trubel. Meisner has no problem telling Nick about Trubel or Eve. Chavez and her team attacked Nick's house with military precision, they where in and out in minutes. Meisner , Trubel and Eve they attacked the building in a catch as catch can fashion. But then Meisner is not military so it makes since why and how he operates.
I don't thing that with Chavez things would be the same as with Meisner...
but it is not so simply as you believe it is... You are clearly not considering some points from the show.
Chavez was taking Nick to a HW meeting with some important members. How can you be so sure that she would not reveal to Nick more than Meisner have done until now?
If Meisner is so NOT important as you say, why Chavez left with him the most important weapon? (Eve).
The cell phone... you say Meisner didn't know Nick, but can you be so sure that Chavez (or other member from the meeting) haven't told Meisner about Nick?
Another point is that the phone couldn't be use by Nick. There is no problem with Nick having it... Actually, Nick with the phone a way for the HW track Nick and still communicate with him using security line. Why would Chavez do different?
You say that with Meisner the gov organization is that. But Meisner promised Nick he would try to get the money to buy the grimm books ... from the government .... This means that somehow Portland Cell of HW still have contact with gov... Government still knows they exist and who knows if they are tracking their activities... How can you be so sure that government is not running Portland HW anymore?
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - syscrash - 02-29-2016
Quote:Chavez was taking Nick to a HW meeting with some important members. How can you be so sure that she would not reveal to Nick more than Meisner have done until now?Chavez was dying and would not tell Nick where Trubel was. Meisner only needed an irate Nick for him to setup a meeting. Nick was irate with Chavez, beat her up, tied her to a chair she still wouldn't talk.
Quote:If Meisner is so NOT important as you say, why Chavez left with him the most important weapon? (Eve).We have seen enough to know Chavez did not leave Eve. No one controls Eve. Things have to meet her approval.
I never said Meisner is not important, he is the sole survivor.
Quote:The cell phone... you say Meisner didn't know Nick, but can you be so sure that Chavez (or other member from the meeting) haven't told Meisner about Nick?Chavez was not convinced on Nick until just before they went to the meet. So when would Meisner been informed about Nick. The show makes a point the phones are high tech and can track a call. If it was BC who had the phone and not Nick. By Meisner acknowledging for Nick to keep the phone, which means it will stay active. That is a trace back to HW. Especially now that Meisner answers with out using the thumb security lock. That is why Chavez said let me use my thump print.
Quote:Another point is that the phone couldn't be use by Nick. There is no problem with Nick having it... Actually, Nick with the phone a way for the HW track Nick and still communicate with him using security line. Why would Chavez do different?Nick did you the phone. He called Meisner about Juliette. Meisner answered without using security. How did he know BC did not have the phone making a call so they could track it. You can block the call, block the to and from numbers, you can not block the tower pings. triangulate you know where the call went to you just won't know how.
Quote:You say that with Meisner the gov organization is that. But Meisner promised Nick he would try to get the money to buy the grimm books ... from the government .... This means that somehow Portland Cell of HW still have contact with gov... Government still knows they exist and who knows if they are tracking their activities... How can you be so sure that government is not running Portland HW anymore?Meisner and Trubel are known to the organization they could be in Portland or Bangkok and request funds. What does that have to do with the Portland headquarters. I am only suspecting the government is not running Portland or just not replace the command structure. Because there is not command structure. Meisner may be waiting for Chavez and her posses replacement. The will then make Nick the gangs involvement and entirely different relation. There is also the idea, they may want to let BC think they took out HW so Meisner can stay off BC radar.
The point is Chavez operated as you would expect a military installation to operate, including sticking to secrecy and security protocols, Meisner doesn't. But like I said where would he have learned that. Chavez is FBI, which means Quantico training.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - wfmyers1207 - 03-01-2016
(02-29-2016, 08:19 PM)speakeasy Wrote: Black Claw is a covert movement, they are waging a worldwide revolution. If Eve is to be believed the group's goal is a world run by wesen. We've seen that this uprising has been building for a long time and in many countries. It's organized and funded and it has a plan. This constitutes a threat to the peace of the world of Grimm just as surely as any real world country performing acts of aggression against its neighbors would.
Imo, it is logical and fitting that the governments of the world would be aware of this activity and would be the best organizations to deal with it. In this case, also in a covert way - as far as the everyday world knows, they don't exist. I feel that HW is just as much of a government-run program as ever, with many civilian workers filling its ranks. Meisner himself said that Hadrian's Wall and the uprising they are determined to stop is much bigger than the Resistance, that's why he threw in with them. The Command Center in Portland is just one of many located around the world according to him and they have impressive resources for tracking the enemy - Hank said he wished the PPB had their computer data banks and systems. The fact that this task force has real money behind it was demonstrated when Nick and Monroe asked for a hundred thousand dollars for the trunk contents and Meisner said he would try to get it. I believe they are the real deal and the lesser of two evils.
I feel Trubel is still loyal to Nick and at the same time believes in the cause of HW. Yes, their methods are questionable, but this is war. Imo, Nick will never be anything but an independent thinker whether he joins forces with HW or merely allies himself with them. What I can't see is him or the Scoobies not joining in the fight to stop this uprising.
I agree that there is no way Nick and the crew don't fight against BC. Just don't see Nick wanting to sign on with HW full time in the end. I think he'll ally himself to them.
Of course, I could be wrong. Have been plenty of times before!
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Hexenadler - 03-01-2016
(02-29-2016, 08:19 PM)speakeasy Wrote: Yes, their methods are questionable, but this is war.
"Yes, their methods are questionable, but..." is always a dangerous thing to say. Using "war" as an all-around excuse to justify everything is just as dangerous. I'm sure the people behind the Rwandan Genocide would insist their actions were entirely acceptable by war's standards.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - jsgrimm45 - 03-01-2016
(02-29-2016, 08:14 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:Good point on the bounty hunters BC could be bad for business. Question then would be would Alexander trust them? I think not so for now I'll take the bounty hunter as staying on the sidelines or siding with BC.(02-29-2016, 05:09 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: The idea of the royals for Alexander is a good question. It would be the test as to if the Royals are behind BC. I don't see the bounty hunters helping Alexander if he can't pay them. Alexander would be a big help to HW so Meisner would be interested. He could help protect Rosalee when Monroe and Nick go to Europe.
You are right. The bounty hunters would help Alexander only if he can pay... but (there is always a but....)
I don't think BC needs to pay for a bounty hunter. They have an army of people that fight for a cause. And who knows if the bounty hunters are being hunted by BC? They killed wesen that disobeyed the council and BC killed the council. It wouldn't be hard for the writers to create a situation where the hunters join Alexander for self surviving. And.... BC is bad for their business.
RE: Will Nick and the crew join or ally with HW? - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-01-2016
(03-01-2016, 09:10 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: Good point on the bounty hunters BC could be bad for business. Question then would be would Alexander trust them? I think not so for now I'll take the bounty hunter as staying on the sidelines or siding with BC.
Good point about trust... I think you are right ... Alexander wouldn't trust then... But it is possible that Alexander knows people like he knows Nick... Nick wouldn't be the only contact Alexander has... people that can be part of self maintaining organization.
The question is.... How many? Is it possible for Alexander rebuild something like the council and fight the BC?
I think the answer is: only if he has strong alies.... like the royals...
I think the problem is that aparently the council didn't have a self army... They always worked with hunters... but if the council had some self agents.... those people could be used.