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Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - Printable Version

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RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - irukandji - 03-20-2017

(03-20-2017, 06:31 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:28 AM)New Guy Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 05:37 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: It's because G&K also came on record at Comic Con that Kelly is Nick's kid, unfortunately I don't have the video.
Yes they said Juliette is dead but it was rebuffed when Eve came back. Well Eve herself believes Juliette is gone/does not exist anymore. G&K never specified what type of death it is, they just said she is dead, she is not coming back. Obviously they were not talking about physical death, that's the loophole.
Hi Grimmbiest,
You mention that there are various types of death. Here is what the Macmillan Dictionary says:
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/thesaurus-category/american/types-of-death
Quote:Types of death - synonyms or related words
Using the thesaurus

accidental death
noun
a death that was not caused on purpose: used for reporting the decision of a coroner (=an official who examines the cause of someone’s death)

carbon monoxide poisoning
noun
a serious condition in which someone breathes in a lot of carbon monoxide so that their blood cannot carry oxygen around their body, and they quickly die

fatality
noun
formal a death caused by an accident, war, violence, or disease

martyrdom
noun
a martyr’s pain or death

poisoning
noun
an occasion when someone is affected by poison

starvation
noun
a situation in which a person or animal suffers or dies because they do not have enough to eat

untimely
adjective
used about the death of someone who dies at a time that makes their death extremely sad or unexpected, especially because they are young

asphyxiation
noun

an early grave
death before the natural age that you would expect

at the hands of someone
if you suffer or die at the hands of someone, they make you suffer or die

a watery grave
a place where someone drowns (=dies under water)

death by misadventure
formal death caused by an accident

the supreme sacrifice
the act of dying for your country or your beliefs, or to save other people
IMO, Nick attempted to kill her "at the hands of someone." He seemed to be choking her but she did not die from "asphyiation - to kill someone by preventing them from breathing, or to die when someone prevents you from breathing." It seems Trubel brought her "untimely" death by two crossbow bolts but Chavez and crew removed the corpse before an autopsy was performed to confirm the "catagory of death."
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/the-four-manners-of-death.html
Quote:These four categories of death are:

Natural Causes: Quite simply when the body ceases to function of its own accord or if there are mitigating medical factors such as terminal illness, heart disease or the like, which would bring about death - this is generally referred to as death by natural causes.

Homicide: The taking of one human life by another human being by means of pre-meditated murder. The term pre-meditated means to have purposely planned and executed the murder of another human being in cold blood whilst trying to elude capture by the authorities.

Accidental Death: As the term would suggest the death of an individual by means other than natural death, murder or suicide. Accidental death can sometimes be manslaughter - murder but committed out of an involuntary act of violence towards another. Likewise accidental death can also be categorised as death by misadventure. This means that the victim has died by accident either whilst doing something they should not have been doing or by taking risks that would put them in mortal danger. A lot of extreme sports participants have died and their deaths have been classified as death by misadventure because of the extreme nature of their pastimes.

Suicide: The deliberate taking of one's own life due to extreme emotional distress often brought about by severe depression. Suicide is neither accidental nor is it classified as death by misadventure simply because the individual has set about on a course of action that would end with their own inevitable death. Normally this would occur by means of drug overdose, the cutting of one's wrists to induce uncontrollable bleeding, or indeed stepping out in front of a moving vehicle.
IMO, if coroner examination had been performed (LOL, in Grimm, not a chance) the finding would categorize her death a homicide, similar to this case:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-crossbow-deaths-1.3739824
Gruesome!
N G
Lol your post is funny. I can only assume they meant spiritual death, I notice you didn't touch on that one.

(03-20-2017, 06:15 AM)irukandji Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 05:37 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: Thus far they haven't rebuffed or cast doubt on Kelly's parentage. Perhaps you guys wanted a DNA test but that's not how it was written.

They didn't rebuff the absurd Juliette is dead fakery either. Instead they made her Eve so they didn't have to deal with it.

While Nick assumed he was Kelly's father, there has been no definitive proof as far as the series is concerned. I think that was deliberate. If Grimm had been given a full season six or even seven, I think that would have been a storyline.

Aside from that, debating Kelly's father isn't all that big of a deal. People to this day are still debating that Juliette knew and participated in Kelly's murder, even though she denied it to Nick.

What proof do you think would suffice to establish Nick's paternity since you don't believe what the story writers themselves have said?

Here's what G said after Juliette's return in S5.
TVLINE | David and Jim, how long have you known you were going to bring Bitsie back?
GREENWALT | A long time… But to keep my word, [Juliette] is dead. She’s coming back, but it’s not really Juliette anymore. It’s this new character, Eve, who has not been brainwashed exactly, but she’s been through some incredibly tough training where they broke her down to nothing. She’s basically a super Hexenbiest weapon for Hadrian’s Wall to fight Black Claw.
She has a big scene with Nick in Episode 7, and she’s just a completely different person who doesn’t even relate to Juliette anymore — because, to her, Juliette’s dead.


Later in season 6 again Eve says Juliette is gone with emphasis, she talks about Juliette as if she's someone else.
But we insist they 'lied' that she's dead. Death has more than one meaning, a person can be dead inside and still physically exist. We interpreted it as physical death because she was shot with arrows and seemingly took her last gasp which could've been just a coma cause by pain and injury.
While i think it's incredulous and more could've been done it is what it is, they're not gonna change the storyline because I don't agree with it.

It hasn't been definitively proven in the series, that's what I'm saying. If Adalind came up to Nick in the final episode and told him he wasn't Kelly's father, he has nothing to back up that he is, in fact, Kelly's father.


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - Robyn - 03-20-2017

Quote:By the way, do you know of any Grimm fairy tale where a character is killed, but comes back? Likely, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm recognized that death is permanent and characters like the big bad wolf ended up indeed dead.
Jumping off the general premise of your argument - that Nick and Trubel have survived six years equally suspends belief, even in a fairytale setting. Realistically, Juliette shouldn’t have survived long enough to become a Hexenbiest considering the multiple attacks on her life. That Hank has survived without significant injury despite constantly jumping into the fray is equally unrealistic.

If the creative team took the approach that all outcomes must be realistic, it’s not believable that any of the characters survived six seasons. It’s one thing to prefer the show follow Grimm fairytales or have death be absolute, but it’s entirely another when your motivation stems only from wanting a hated character to have actually died and remained dead.


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - FaceInTheCrowd - 03-20-2017

The crossbow fires bolts that can be filled with poison or tranquilizers. Juliette was just drugged.


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - Grimmbiest11 - 03-20-2017

(03-20-2017, 07:09 AM)irukandji Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:31 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:28 AM)New Guy Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 05:37 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: It's because G&K also came on record at Comic Con that Kelly is Nick's kid, unfortunately I don't have the video.
Yes they said Juliette is dead but it was rebuffed when Eve came back. Well Eve herself believes Juliette is gone/does not exist anymore. G&K never specified what type of death it is, they just said she is dead, she is not coming back. Obviously they were not talking about physical death, that's the loophole.
Hi Grimmbiest,
You mention that there are various types of death. Here is what the Macmillan Dictionary says:
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/thesaurus-category/american/types-of-death
Quote:Types of death - synonyms or related words
Using the thesaurus

accidental death
noun
a death that was not caused on purpose: used for reporting the decision of a coroner (=an official who examines the cause of someone’s death)

carbon monoxide poisoning
noun
a serious condition in which someone breathes in a lot of carbon monoxide so that their blood cannot carry oxygen around their body, and they quickly die

fatality
noun
formal a death caused by an accident, war, violence, or disease

martyrdom
noun
a martyr’s pain or death

poisoning
noun
an occasion when someone is affected by poison

starvation
noun
a situation in which a person or animal suffers or dies because they do not have enough to eat

untimely
adjective
used about the death of someone who dies at a time that makes their death extremely sad or unexpected, especially because they are young

asphyxiation
noun

an early grave
death before the natural age that you would expect

at the hands of someone
if you suffer or die at the hands of someone, they make you suffer or die

a watery grave
a place where someone drowns (=dies under water)

death by misadventure
formal death caused by an accident

the supreme sacrifice
the act of dying for your country or your beliefs, or to save other people
IMO, Nick attempted to kill her "at the hands of someone." He seemed to be choking her but she did not die from "asphyiation - to kill someone by preventing them from breathing, or to die when someone prevents you from breathing." It seems Trubel brought her "untimely" death by two crossbow bolts but Chavez and crew removed the corpse before an autopsy was performed to confirm the "catagory of death."
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/the-four-manners-of-death.html
Quote:These four categories of death are:

Natural Causes: Quite simply when the body ceases to function of its own accord or if there are mitigating medical factors such as terminal illness, heart disease or the like, which would bring about death - this is generally referred to as death by natural causes.

Homicide: The taking of one human life by another human being by means of pre-meditated murder. The term pre-meditated means to have purposely planned and executed the murder of another human being in cold blood whilst trying to elude capture by the authorities.

Accidental Death: As the term would suggest the death of an individual by means other than natural death, murder or suicide. Accidental death can sometimes be manslaughter - murder but committed out of an involuntary act of violence towards another. Likewise accidental death can also be categorised as death by misadventure. This means that the victim has died by accident either whilst doing something they should not have been doing or by taking risks that would put them in mortal danger. A lot of extreme sports participants have died and their deaths have been classified as death by misadventure because of the extreme nature of their pastimes.

Suicide: The deliberate taking of one's own life due to extreme emotional distress often brought about by severe depression. Suicide is neither accidental nor is it classified as death by misadventure simply because the individual has set about on a course of action that would end with their own inevitable death. Normally this would occur by means of drug overdose, the cutting of one's wrists to induce uncontrollable bleeding, or indeed stepping out in front of a moving vehicle.
IMO, if coroner examination had been performed (LOL, in Grimm, not a chance) the finding would categorize her death a homicide, similar to this case:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-crossbow-deaths-1.3739824
Gruesome!
N G
Lol your post is funny. I can only assume they meant spiritual death, I notice you didn't touch on that one.

(03-20-2017, 06:15 AM)irukandji Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 05:37 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: Thus far they haven't rebuffed or cast doubt on Kelly's parentage. Perhaps you guys wanted a DNA test but that's not how it was written.

They didn't rebuff the absurd Juliette is dead fakery either. Instead they made her Eve so they didn't have to deal with it.

While Nick assumed he was Kelly's father, there has been no definitive proof as far as the series is concerned. I think that was deliberate. If Grimm had been given a full season six or even seven, I think that would have been a storyline.

Aside from that, debating Kelly's father isn't all that big of a deal. People to this day are still debating that Juliette knew and participated in Kelly's murder, even though she denied it to Nick.

What proof do you think would suffice to establish Nick's paternity since you don't believe what the story writers themselves have said?

Here's what G said after Juliette's return in S5.
TVLINE | David and Jim, how long have you known you were going to bring Bitsie back?
GREENWALT | A long time… But to keep my word, [Juliette] is dead. She’s coming back, but it’s not really Juliette anymore. It’s this new character, Eve, who has not been brainwashed exactly, but she’s been through some incredibly tough training where they broke her down to nothing. She’s basically a super Hexenbiest weapon for Hadrian’s Wall to fight Black Claw.
She has a big scene with Nick in Episode 7, and she’s just a completely different person who doesn’t even relate to Juliette anymore — because, to her, Juliette’s dead.


Later in season 6 again Eve says Juliette is gone with emphasis, she talks about Juliette as if she's someone else.
But we insist they 'lied' that she's dead. Death has more than one meaning, a person can be dead inside and still physically exist. We interpreted it as physical death because she was shot with arrows and seemingly took her last gasp which could've been just a coma cause by pain and injury.
While i think it's incredulous and more could've been done it is what it is, they're not gonna change the storyline because I don't agree with it.

It hasn't been definitively proven in the series, that's what I'm saying. If Adalind came up to Nick in the final episode and told him he wasn't Kelly's father, he has nothing to back up that he is, in fact, Kelly's father.

But she hasn't and we have 2 episodes left.


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - New Guy - 03-20-2017

(03-20-2017, 07:02 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:51 AM)New Guy Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:31 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: Lol your post is funny. I can only assume they meant spiritual death, I notice you didn't touch on that one.
Hi Grimmbiest,
The crossbow homicides I mention are (supposedly) real, not spiritual. Only in a fantasy like Grimm can a character be shot twice by a crossbow, be declared dead and show up in a later episode. By the way, do you know of any Grimm fairy tale where a character is killed, but comes back? Likely, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm recognized that death is permanent and characters like the big bad wolf ended up "indeed dead." Cool
N G

Lol N G, you're too funny. who told you she was physically dead after the arrows shot her. They just implied it, she probably lapsed in a coma due to severe injury.
It happens on TV all the time, people walk unscathed from bomb explosions, no hearing problems, just a toss and and a forehead scratch. You can't apply real life to some television scenarios because it's impossible.
Hi Grimmbiest,
Here are the articles about the death. None simply "imply" death but indicate she physically died:
http://www.tvguide.com/news/grimm-season-5-premiere/
Quote:Ding-dong! The Hexenbiest is dead!

As we return to Grimm for its fifth season on Friday (9/8c, NBC), it is with the delightful knowledge that Juliette is well and truly dead.
http://www.tv.com/shows/grimm/community/post/grimm-juliette-dead-confirm-comic-con-nbc-143666153014/
Quote:EW's Lynette Rice, asked executive producer Greenwalt if Juliette was really dead, likening her death in the finale to Jon Snow’s on Game of Thrones as a possible misdirection, but Greenwalt confirmed that yes, Juliette is indeed dead.
http://tvline.com/2015/05/15/grimm-juliette-dies-dead-season-5-spoilers/
Quote:Trubel stepped in and put two arrows into the veterinarian’s torso. As Nick cradled his former love in his arms, she died on the floor of the home they shared.
. . .
Juliette is dead,” series co-creator and executive producer James Kouf says.
“Sure looks like it,” adds series co-creator and EP David Greenwalt, laughing.
Are they telling the truth?
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/grimm-creators-finales-surprising-death-795616
Quote:THR spoke to Greenwalt and Kouf about the death, what it means for Nick and the future of the show.

So… let’s get right to it: Is Juliette really dead?
David Greenwalt: That’s a great question. Now, I think that’s a question that will be--
Jim Kouf: Hell yeah! We can only afford so many people in the fifth year.
I have never read an interview where G&K said Juli/Hexenette "lapsed in a coma due to severe injury."
In every interview they confirmed that she "really" died, and was "indeed dead."
If she died then we have this FrankenEve Wooden Woman that upstaged the show with her hooker wigs and head explosion tricks. If she was onlu in a coma then G&K are bald-faced liars. I prefer to leave it as a Frankenstein twist that failed than to an infamous lie.
You are not alone in your opinion nor am I. I just prefer to watch the show believing the writers are truthful.
N G


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - Hell Rell - 03-20-2017

(03-19-2017, 09:59 PM)syscrash Wrote: The Adalind vs Juliette argument is a good example.
There is the argument that Adalind raped Nick. And opinion based on some people's view of the world and their beliefs even though it is contrary to the writers' intent.

Rape is always a tricky subject and shouldn't just be left to writers intent and not discussed any further. I know what their intent was but that doesn't mean what they put on the screen lined up with their intent. I call it rape because it sure as hell looked like one. GOT had the same exact problem and so did AOS and OUAT for that matter. I saw rapes in those shows too but they weren't classified as rape.

Let's take the same scenario but with Rosalee being bedded by Renard looking like Monroe. Would the network even dare? Would that not be called rape and cause a shitstorm, especially if Rosalee ended up pregnant?

(03-20-2017, 06:26 AM)irukandji Wrote: [quote='rpmaluki' pid='50621' dateline='1490016171']

The point is Kelly's paternity has never been established. It's only been brought up through interviews and Adalind, who told Nick he was the father. She herself completely forgot that and in fact stated she wasn't with anyone. I know they wrote Claire's pregnancy into the story but that doesn't completely make the child Nick's. Adalind could come up to Nick at any time and tell him Kelly isn't his. There's nothing in the story to definitively prove he is Kelly's father.

Let's just assume that is the case for the sake of this debate. That would mean that this will be revealed in the last two episodes. If you don't believe Nick is Kelly's father, that would have to be revealed in the final two episodes. Do you believe that is what will happen? There has to be some storyline benefit from it and it being placed at the end has to amount to something. How much time are they going to dedicate to it considering everything else that's going on?


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - Grimmbiest11 - 03-20-2017

(03-20-2017, 10:51 AM)New Guy Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 07:02 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:51 AM)New Guy Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 06:31 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: Lol your post is funny. I can only assume they meant spiritual death, I notice you didn't touch on that one.
Hi Grimmbiest,
The crossbow homicides I mention are (supposedly) real, not spiritual. Only in a fantasy like Grimm can a character be shot twice by a crossbow, be declared dead and show up in a later episode. By the way, do you know of any Grimm fairy tale where a character is killed, but comes back? Likely, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm recognized that death is permanent and characters like the big bad wolf ended up "indeed dead." Cool
N G

Lol N G, you're too funny. who told you she was physically dead after the arrows shot her. They just implied it, she probably lapsed in a coma due to severe injury.
It happens on TV all the time, people walk unscathed from bomb explosions, no hearing problems, just a toss and and a forehead scratch. You can't apply real life to some television scenarios because it's impossible.
Hi Grimmbiest,
Here are the articles about the death. None simply "imply" death but indicate she physically died:
http://www.tvguide.com/news/grimm-season-5-premiere/
Quote:Ding-dong! The Hexenbiest is dead!

As we return to Grimm for its fifth season on Friday (9/8c, NBC), it is with the delightful knowledge that Juliette is well and truly dead.
http://www.tv.com/shows/grimm/community/post/grimm-juliette-dead-confirm-comic-con-nbc-143666153014/
Quote:EW's Lynette Rice, asked executive producer Greenwalt if Juliette was really dead, likening her death in the finale to Jon Snow’s on Game of Thrones as a possible misdirection, but Greenwalt confirmed that yes, Juliette is indeed dead.
http://tvline.com/2015/05/15/grimm-juliette-dies-dead-season-5-spoilers/
Quote:Trubel stepped in and put two arrows into the veterinarian’s torso. As Nick cradled his former love in his arms, she died on the floor of the home they shared.
. . .
Juliette is dead,” series co-creator and executive producer James Kouf says.
“Sure looks like it,” adds series co-creator and EP David Greenwalt, laughing.
Are they telling the truth?
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/grimm-creators-finales-surprising-death-795616
Quote:THR spoke to Greenwalt and Kouf about the death, what it means for Nick and the future of the show.

So… let’s get right to it: Is Juliette really dead?
David Greenwalt: That’s a great question. Now, I think that’s a question that will be--
Jim Kouf: Hell yeah! We can only afford so many people in the fifth year.
I have never read an interview where G&K said Juli/Hexenette "lapsed in a coma due to severe injury."
In every interview they confirmed that she "really" died, and was "indeed dead."
If she died then we have this FrankenEve Wooden Woman that upstaged the show with her hooker wigs and head explosion tricks. If she was onlu in a coma then G&K are bald-faced liars. I prefer to leave it as a Frankenstein twist that failed than to an infamous lie.
You are not alone in your opinion nor am I. I just prefer to watch the show believing the writers are truthful.
N G

I always find your posts entertaining, so who do you think is this version of a woman who looks like Juliette? And why do they look alike even if they aren't the same person?


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - irukandji - 03-20-2017

(03-20-2017, 08:49 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: But she hasn't and we have 2 episodes left.

It may never be revealed.


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - FaceInTheCrowd - 03-20-2017

Here in Oregon, what Adalind did wouldn't meet the legal test for rape. There is an offense called "sexual abuse in the third degree," which some legal experts believe could apply using the argument that Adalind's deception deprived Nick of the ability to give informed consent to sex with her. However, this argument has never been attempted and therefore is untested. And even if it worked, the offense is a misdemeanor. One year and a fine of $6250.

Adalind could also be charged with "criminal impersonation." Another misdemeanor, unless the person being impersonated is an LEO, judge or justice of the peace.


RE: Adalind vs. Juliette/Eve - MarylikesGrimm - 03-20-2017

(03-20-2017, 11:27 AM)irukandji Wrote:
(03-20-2017, 08:49 AM)Grimmbiest11 Wrote: But she hasn't and we have 2 episodes left.

It may never be revealed.

Nothing in this show is a true fact so nothing will be revealed as a fact. Adalind is the only cast character writers have let us hear her thoughts on the show on a topic like Kelly's father (twice) so if she is wrong does not change that she truly believes Nick is father and she is his mother but she could be wrong since people do not always believe the truth.

There is promo picture and comment in the summary for 613 that suggests that something will be happening to Kelly magical in the next two shows.