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+--- Thread: Eve/Juliette (/Thread-Eve-Juliette)
RE: Eve/Juliette - Hell Rell - 04-29-2018
(04-29-2018, 03:44 PM)irukandji Wrote:(04-29-2018, 11:34 AM)Henry of green Wrote: You wrote above claiming nick didn't believe the situation with Julitte was that dangerous, that is against canon Nick directly told Juliette not to harm his baby and stood in her way defending the child therefore a dangerous sitution.
So then you're in essence stating Nick is a moron and left Adalind in the area while he dealt with this dangerous situation involving Juliette, is that it?
And when are you going to make up your mind about this situation? You said it was a potentially dangerous situation previously. Now it's been bumped up to a dangerous situation.
I often find that the show turns the characters into morons. Nick could've thought Juliette was extremely dangerous and handled it the exact same way although I don't believe he was really a moron in this case. He stood between Juliette and Adalind and for a brief moment physically restrained her which tells me that he thought the situation was dangerous and may get increasingly volatile without his intervention.
This reminds me of previous debates about Juliette's knowledge of what would happen to Kelly. One of the biggest debates, if not the biggest debate, in the history of the forum is whether Juliette knew Kelly would be killed or not. Her knowing Kelly would be killed makes her unbelievably malicious while her not knowing makes her unbelievably idiotic.
To be completely honest, I don't think Nick's actions at the precinct come close to that plot thread. Hell, Nick not requesting a pregnancy test makes him far dumber than anything he did at the precinct that day.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 04-29-2018
(04-29-2018, 06:23 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(04-29-2018, 03:44 PM)irukandji Wrote:(04-29-2018, 11:34 AM)Henry of green Wrote: You wrote above claiming nick didn't believe the situation with Julitte was that dangerous, that is against canon Nick directly told Juliette not to harm his baby and stood in her way defending the child therefore a dangerous sitution.
So then you're in essence stating Nick is a moron and left Adalind in the area while he dealt with this dangerous situation involving Juliette, is that it?
And when are you going to make up your mind about this situation? You said it was a potentially dangerous situation previously. Now it's been bumped up to a dangerous situation.
I often find that the show turns the characters into morons. Nick could've thought Juliette was extremely dangerous and handled it the exact same way although I don't believe he was really a moron in this case. He stood between Juliette and Adalind and for a brief moment physically restrained her which tells me that he thought the situation was dangerous and may get increasingly volatile without his intervention.
This reminds me of previous debates about Juliette's knowledge of what would happen to Kelly. One of the biggest debates, if not the biggest debate, in the history of the forum is whether Juliette knew Kelly would be killed or not. Her knowing Kelly would be killed makes her unbelievably malicious while her not knowing makes her unbelievably idiotic.
To be completely honest, I don't think Nick's actions at the precinct come close to that plot thread. Hell, Nick not requesting a pregnancy test makes him far dumber than anything he did at the precinct that day.
I don't think Nick considered the situation extremely dangerous. For Nick to do so, he would have had to have considered that *his* own life was being threatened by Juliette. I doubt he'd be standing in her way or restraining her if that was the case. Instead, he would have relied on his police training. He would enlisted Wu's help as well as the other policemen who were standing by. He would have drawn his gun for his own protection as well as Adalind's. Furthermore, he would have had Juliette properly restrained and placed once again in custody.
And for Adalind's great fear, she managed to disagree with Nick, when he refused Wu's help because "they were working something out". Adalind disagreed with Nick and then told Wu "we are not working anything out. She (Juliette) needs to leave".
Would she really tell someone that she was deathly afraid of to leave? I doubt it.
(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?
How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?
(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: If he had told Adalind to run... where to?
Wherever he felt she would be safe.
(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And what would that be? She isn't listening when he tells her that he's not taking sides. And she's angry at the time, so reasoning with her seems unlikely, no matter what it is he wants her to hear.
What 'seems to be unlikely' is only in the eyes of the beholder. Nick's a cop with years of experience dealing with unreasonable people.
I'm curious. I take it you believe Nick should have simply shrugged his shoulders, given up, and excused himself out of the whole situation by stating he couldn't get through to her?
(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?
What thing about Adalind? Certainly if Nick had misgivings about allowing her to become a Scooby, he wouldn't have waited until she was in labor, right?
RE: Eve/Juliette - Henry of green - 04-29-2018
(04-29-2018, 03:44 PM)irukandji Wrote:(04-29-2018, 11:34 AM)Henry of green Wrote: You wrote above claiming nick didn't believe the situation with Julitte was that dangerous, that is against canon Nick directly told Juliette not to harm his baby and stood in her way defending the child therefore a dangerous sitution.
So then you're in essence stating Nick is a moron and left Adalind in the area while he dealt with this dangerous situation involving Juliette, is that it?
And when are you going to make up your mind about this situation? You said it was a potentially dangerous situation previously. Now it's been bumped up to a dangerous situation.
Your are once again wrong I never said the situation was anything but dangerous, I said in past posts it’s a potentially deadly situation I never once doubted the dangerousness of the situation. Anyone can clearly see its a dangerous situation if they were paying attention. Also in your above statement if nick felt the situation dangerous he would have restrained Juliette is just wrong , any attempt of officers to restrain Juliette would have made the situation far more dangerous for Adalind and his child.
For example When you are confronted with a wild animal in the wild you don’t run or attack it first you stand your ground and look as big as possible.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 04-30-2018
(04-29-2018, 10:01 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Also in your above statement if nick felt the situation dangerous he would have restrained Juliette is just wrong , any attempt of officers to restrain Juliette would have made the situation far more dangerous for Adalind and his child.
Juliette allowed an officer to take her into custody after the bar incident. She did not make the situation far more dangerous then, so I'm not sure where you are getting your information. In the precinct, Nick not only blocked Juliette's way but he also restrained her by grabbing her arm. She allowed that as well. The situation did not become far more dangerous, even when she accused him of choosing Adalind over her. It did not become more dangerous, even when Adalind opened her big mouth to tell Wu that Juliette should be the one to leave. That alone should have thrown Juliette right over the edge, if the situation were was a deadly one as you claim.
(04-29-2018, 10:01 PM)Henry of green Wrote: For example When you are confronted with a wild animal in the wild you don’t run or attack it first you stand your ground and look as big as possible.
I have no idea what this has to do with the topic.
Nick was the one who stood in Juliette's way. Nick was the one who restrained Juliette by grabbing her arm. He didn't cower in fear from Juliette like Adalind did. In other words, Nick never felt the situation was a deadly one *to him*.
He saw the situation differently than Adalind and to me, that makes sense. Not every person equates danger to a deadly situation.
RE: Eve/Juliette - New Guy - 04-30-2018
Hi Forum,
If G&K wrote a script for a gangster show where Al Capone learned that Albert Anselmi and John Scalise had gone to a Chicago precinct to rat him out and the next scene is Al walking toward them toting a Louisville Slugger, would Anselmi and Scalise be in any danger? Would the situation be potentially dangerous? Could the situation become deadly?
Which is more deadly, Hexenette's head exploding telekinetic power or Capone's Louisville Slugger? Note that she killed Jonah Riken in 4.10, "Tribunal."
WDYT,
N G
RE: Eve/Juliette - Zansy - 04-30-2018
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?
How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: If he had told Adalind to run... where to?
Wherever he felt she would be safe.
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:How about a few canon quotes?(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And what would that be? She isn't listening when he tells her that he's not taking sides. And she's angry at the time, so reasoning with her seems unlikely, no matter what it is he wants her to hear.
What 'seems to be unlikely' is only in the eyes of the beholder. Nick's a cop with years of experience dealing with unreasonable people.
I'm curious. I take it you believe Nick should have simply shrugged his shoulders, given up, and excused himself out of the whole situation by stating he couldn't get through to her?
Nick: I’m not giving up. We’re gonna get through this.
Juliette: You can’t change it.
Nick: I’m not gonna let it destroy what we have.
Juliette: I see the way you are looking at me. It’s not the same. It’ll never be the same.
Nick: You learned to understand me, now I have to learn how to understand you.
Juliette: Is that forever?
Nick: I’m not going anywhere.
Juliette (woges): Is this what you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it?
Nick: Why are you doing this?
Juliette: If I’m the girl of your dreams, the least you can do is kiss me. Kiss me. You can’t even look at me. This is what’s forever.
(4.14)
![[Image: tumblr_p80e6dgWtb1xryu9qo1_1280.jpg]](https://78.media.tumblr.com/573355b22ede7ae80763f3e95b8ccfc8/tumblr_p80e6dgWtb1xryu9qo1_1280.jpg)
Juliette: I need to get some of my stuff.
Nick: What? So you’re just moving out?
Juliette: I was hoping you wouldn’t be home.
Nick: Look, can we talk about this?
Juliette: There’s really nothing you or anybody else can say or do. This is who I am.
Nick: Juliette, this is my fault. And if there was anything I could do to change it, I would.
Juliette: I know that.
Nick: I haven’t given up yet.
Juliette: Why not?
Nick: Because I love you.
(4.16)
Nick: What do you want from me?
Adalind: I need you to protect me from Juliette. ‘Cause nobody else will.
Nick: Why the hell would I do that?
Adalind: I’m not expecting you to do this for me. I was hoping that you would do it for your child. But, if not for that, maybe you’ll do it for Juliette.
Nick: For Juliette? Are you kidding me?
Adalind: I know a way to help her.
Nick: I don’t believe anything you’re saying.
Adalind: Do you think I would risk coming here if I didn’t have anything? Look, I’m not making any promises, and you have to understand that there is no way to cure her completely.
Nick: Well then what is the point of this?
Adalind: Because there is a way to suppress the Hexenbiest in her.
(4.19)
So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Please explain to me why he would make the choice to make her a Scooby? I honestly don't understand where you are getting that impression from canon. In my mind he's enlisted Adalind's help to try find a way to make things better for Juliette. And she randomly manages to point them in the right direction on how to help Sean. I don't see that idea go beyond that at that point. And I do not understand where you get that idea.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?
What thing about Adalind? Certainly if Nick had misgivings about allowing her to become a Scooby, he wouldn't have waited until she was in labor, right?
The only thing that would possibly make sense for me in that direction would be if somehow feeling Kelly kick had made him want to be a dad and that could possibly motivate him to bring her into the fold for any reason other than trying to get her to help Juliette. But if he did it for that reason, he'd be sure about wanting to be Kelly's dad by 5.01.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Henry of green - 04-30-2018
(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?
How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: If he had told Adalind to run... where to?
Wherever he felt she would be safe.
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:How about a few canon quotes?(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And what would that be? She isn't listening when he tells her that he's not taking sides. And she's angry at the time, so reasoning with her seems unlikely, no matter what it is he wants her to hear.
What 'seems to be unlikely' is only in the eyes of the beholder. Nick's a cop with years of experience dealing with unreasonable people.
I'm curious. I take it you believe Nick should have simply shrugged his shoulders, given up, and excused himself out of the whole situation by stating he couldn't get through to her?
Nick: I’m not giving up. We’re gonna get through this.
Juliette: You can’t change it.
Nick: I’m not gonna let it destroy what we have.
Juliette: I see the way you are looking at me. It’s not the same. It’ll never be the same.
Nick: You learned to understand me, now I have to learn how to understand you.
Juliette: Is that forever?
Nick: I’m not going anywhere.
Juliette (woges): Is this what you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it?
Nick: Why are you doing this?
Juliette: If I’m the girl of your dreams, the least you can do is kiss me. Kiss me. You can’t even look at me. This is what’s forever.
(4.14)
Juliette: I need to get some of my stuff.
Nick: What? So you’re just moving out?
Juliette: I was hoping you wouldn’t be home.
Nick: Look, can we talk about this?
Juliette: There’s really nothing you or anybody else can say or do. This is who I am.
Nick: Juliette, this is my fault. And if there was anything I could do to change it, I would.
Juliette: I know that.
Nick: I haven’t given up yet.
Juliette: Why not?
Nick: Because I love you.
(4.16)
Nick: What do you want from me?
Adalind: I need you to protect me from Juliette. ‘Cause nobody else will.
Nick: Why the hell would I do that?
Adalind: I’m not expecting you to do this for me. I was hoping that you would do it for your child. But, if not for that, maybe you’ll do it for Juliette.
Nick: For Juliette? Are you kidding me?
Adalind: I know a way to help her.
Nick: I don’t believe anything you’re saying.
Adalind: Do you think I would risk coming here if I didn’t have anything? Look, I’m not making any promises, and you have to understand that there is no way to cure her completely.
Nick: Well then what is the point of this?
Adalind: Because there is a way to suppress the Hexenbiest in her.
(4.19)
So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".
(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Please explain to me why he would make the choice to make her a Scooby? I honestly don't understand where you are getting that impression from canon. In my mind he's enlisted Adalind's help to try find a way to make things better for Juliette. And she randomly manages to point them in the right direction on how to help Sean. I don't see that idea go beyond that at that point. And I do not understand where you get that idea.(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?
What thing about Adalind? Certainly if Nick had misgivings about allowing her to become a Scooby, he wouldn't have waited until she was in labor, right?
The only thing that would possibly make sense for me in that direction would be if somehow feeling Kelly kick had made him want to be a dad and that could possibly motivate him to bring her into the fold for any reason other than trying to get her to help Juliette. But if he did it for that reason, he'd be sure about wanting to be Kelly's dad by 5.01.
Excellent, post well thought out and I wholeheartedly a agree with everything you stated, it’s pretty clear to me Nick handled the situation in the precinct the best he possibly could given the extreme circumstances surrounding the precinct scene. I also agree it is a bit hypocritical calling out Nick merely for protecting a pregnant Adalind, while Juliette slept with Renard a man who has caused them both as much if not more pain than Adalind .
RE: Eve/Juliette - Zansy - 04-30-2018
(04-30-2018, 12:29 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Excellent, post well thought out and I wholeheartedly a agree with everything you stated, it’s pretty clear to me Nick handled the situation in the precint the best he possibly could given the extreme circumstances surrounding the precinct scene. I also agree it is a bit hypocritical calling out Nick merely for protecting a pregnant Adalind, while Juliette slept with Renard a man who has caused them both as much if not more pain than Adalind .Thank you, I'm glad you think it makes sense.
RE: Eve/Juliette - dicappatore - 04-30-2018
(04-30-2018, 02:01 PM)Zansy Wrote:(04-30-2018, 12:29 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Excellent, post well thought out and I wholeheartedly a agree with everything you stated, it’s pretty clear to me Nick handled the situation in the precint the best he possibly could given the extreme circumstances surrounding the precinct scene. I also agree it is a bit hypocritical calling out Nick merely for protecting a pregnant Adalind, while Juliette slept with Renard a man who has caused them both as much if not more pain than Adalind .Thank you, I'm glad you think it makes sense.
Well, I tried to have an intelligent mature conversation with "SOME" contributor about that whole scene. Like I said on previous posts. Even if there was a side to take, why should Nick take Juliette's side.
From one side of their typing hand (MOUTH), "SOME" claim, what she did with Sean was not considered cheating, since she had broken up with Nick, moved out and moved on, meanwhile on the other side of their typing hand (MOUTH) they question why he betrayed Juliette for taking the side of the woman with his unborn child. Hadn't that "betrayal ship" sailed?
All I got in replies was bla, bla, bla. I know Henry, NG and a few others, been down this rabbit hole before. It will be interesting and entertaining to see you, Zansy, deal with suck wacks-doodles (plural). I bet, soon you will be answering posts with videos like some of us have done already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8WOHN3IqM8
RE: Eve/Juliette - Robyn - 05-01-2018
The show addressed Adalind not using birth control with one line to Nick - that she didn’t know she could get pregnant during the spell. I didn’t take that as indicating she was too preoccupied to consider unintended pregnancy, but rather, was incorrectly confident there wasn’t a risk of pregnancy.
As for Juliette’s leap to the dark side - G & K wanted a lickety-split transition that moved Juliette into the bad guy camp and Adalind into the good guy camp, and weren’t interested in providing explanations. They didn’t even bother using the high risk reversal spell to clarify why Juliette was so adamant the relationship wouldn’t work or turned against Nick and their friends in the blink of an eye. Their goal was to make Juliette the S4 finale big bad and open a path to Nick/Adalind in S5. The why, how, what, when, where, as well as keeping with characterization, weren’t important to their drama driven action finale.