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+--- Thread: Eve/Juliette (/Thread-Eve-Juliette)
RE: Eve/Juliette - Hell Rell - 03-01-2018
(03-01-2018, 02:10 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 07:26 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: It also doesn't help that I've never been a fan of "love conquers all" storylines. It just makes the characters look absurd unless the show makes a point of showing how absurd they are. There were too many obstacles, danger, and lies for their relationship to last.
I think that has more to do with your personal cynicism than the concept itself.
I guess it's my personal cynicism that saw just how much danger Nick and Juliette needed to break up. Unlike Monroe and Rosalee, they weren't even honest with each other. They caused each other a lot more pain because they couldn't even tell each other the truth until too much shit had hit the fan. Juliette was literally on the brink of death before Nick mentioned being a Grimm and he still didn't tell her the truth. It was Rosalee who took the lead on enlightening her.
Juliette told Renard she was a Hexenbiest before she told Nick. It was only after the second violent home invasion in two weeks that she told him the truth.
As for my general outlook, I don't think it's cynical to believe that love isn't enough. There are other factors that come into play. My key words were obstacles, danger, and, lies. All of those things combined are too much to overcome despite the love.
In particular, shows like this constantly put others in danger in order to preserve the relationship. A show like OUAT featuring the Emma/Hook relationship shows just how absurd it really is.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 03-01-2018
Quote:(03-01-2018, 07:58 AM)thecdn Wrote:(03-01-2018, 05:23 AM)irukandji Wrote:In my opinion, from a science fiction/fantasy perspective, I think I prefer a main character who, because he is different and thus has an extremely dangerous life, shuns away from a significant other or any attempt at a normal life.
Ever watch Farscape? John + Aeryn made a great show even better.
No, I never watched Farscape either.
(03-01-2018, 07:58 AM)thecdn Wrote:Quote:I agree Nick and Juliette had little chemistry as a romantic couple. Nick and Adalind had even less.
Less?! I think I'll have to disagree there.
There's no reason why you can't disagree. Feel free. This is simply my opinion. But, when a series has to throw a baby into the mix so that main character male will interact with non-main character female, it seems to me that even they are concerned about the chemistry between the two.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Hexenadler - 03-01-2018
(03-01-2018, 02:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:10 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 07:26 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: It also doesn't help that I've never been a fan of "love conquers all" storylines. It just makes the characters look absurd unless the show makes a point of showing how absurd they are. There were too many obstacles, danger, and lies for their relationship to last.
I think that has more to do with your personal cynicism than the concept itself.
I guess it's my personal cynicism that saw just how much danger Nick and Juliette needed to break up.
Uh...yeah, pretty much. The show maintained N&J's relationship for three seasons, then promptly trashed it in just a few episodes, purely in favor of making "Nadalind" happen (and if you support THAT relationship, accusing "Nickette" of being dangerous is the peak of hypocrisy).
RE: Eve/Juliette - Hell Rell - 03-01-2018
(03-01-2018, 06:59 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:10 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 07:26 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: It also doesn't help that I've never been a fan of "love conquers all" storylines. It just makes the characters look absurd unless the show makes a point of showing how absurd they are. There were too many obstacles, danger, and lies for their relationship to last.
I think that has more to do with your personal cynicism than the concept itself.
I guess it's my personal cynicism that saw just how much danger Nick and Juliette needed to break up.
Uh...yeah, pretty much. The show maintained N&J's relationship for three seasons, then promptly trashed it in just a few episodes, purely in favor of making "Nadalind" happen (and if you support THAT relationship, accusing "Nickette" of being dangerous is the peak of hypocrisy).
It was trashed in a few episodes. My previous post described the ways I thought it was hard to swallow even before season 4. The first two seasons gave plenty of reasons for them to break up but I still wasn't actively rooting against them.
Previously to Juliette becoming a Hexenbiest, I could've understood an amicable breakup at any point past season 1. There didn't really need to be a bunch of animosity between them for them to break up. For the Record, I wouldn't have minded them staying together either if it wasn't for what Juliette did in season 4 but it's not like I ever thought they were a couple for the ages. I actually felt like they made Juliette too accommodating in that relationship considering everything she had been through.
As for Nick/Adalind, it's not like we don't know they got together because of Kelly. We've already talked about how the writers dropped the ball in some aspects of that relationship as well starting with Nick not asking for a paternity test and a multitude of other things. I just didn't want to drag Adalind into another conversation about Juliette.
RE: Eve/Juliette - dicappatore - 03-01-2018
(03-01-2018, 02:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:10 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 07:26 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: It also doesn't help that I've never been a fan of "love conquers all" storylines. It just makes the characters look absurd unless the show makes a point of showing how absurd they are. There were too many obstacles, danger, and lies for their relationship to last.
I think that has more to do with your personal cynicism than the concept itself.
I guess it's my personal cynicism that saw just how much danger Nick and Juliette needed to break up. Unlike Monroe and Rosalee, they weren't even honest with each other. They caused each other a lot more pain because they couldn't even tell each other the truth until too much shit had hit the fan. Juliette was literally on the brink of death before Nick mentioned being a Grimm and he still didn't tell her the truth. It was Rosalee who took the lead on enlightening her.
Juliette told Renard she was a Hexenbiest before she told Nick. It was only after the second violent home invasion in two weeks that she told him the truth.
As for my general outlook, I don't think it's cynical to believe that love isn't enough. There are other factors that come into play. My key words were obstacles, danger, and, lies. All of those things combined are too much to overcome despite the love.
In particular, shows like this constantly put others in danger in order to preserve the relationship. A show like OUAT featuring the Emma/Hook relationship shows just how absurd it really is.
As I recall, I always blamed both Nick and Juliette for their break-up. Like you said, he kept secrets from her, in the beginning and she did the same to him, in the end. The whole coma thing did not help either. We saw a side of Juliette that wasn't as loving and understanding as she was made to believe.
It entertaining about the chemistry discussion that is constantly rehashed on so many threads. This debate of who had better chemistry. Was it Nick/Juliette or Nick/Adalind.
To me, it is so obvious. Juliette refused his proposal. Why? She had issues of mistrust with Nick. Well that is proof of lack of chemistry. She kept secret from him about her Hex. Again, she mistrusted him about her safety, as a Hex, after living with the guy for almost 4 years. More proof of the lack of chemistry. She walks out on him, shags two of his nemesis and betrays Nick's mother that loved her. Not much chemistry in that beaker heating up on the bunsen burner, is there.
Noe take Nick/Adalind. They have a kid together under uncanny circumstances. They end up living together on the screen for just as long as Nick/Juliette did, if not more. Once you deduct the time Juliette spent un-involved with Nick, as a result of the coma awakening effects with much less mistrust of each other. Their relationship survived the BC insurgent and "The Z Guy" incursion. Add on, 20 years later they are still together as mom and dad. To me, that's chemistry.
RE: Eve/Juliette - Henry of green - 03-02-2018
(03-01-2018, 09:07 PM)dicappatore Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:10 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 07:26 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: It also doesn't help that I've never been a fan of "love conquers all" storylines. It just makes the characters look absurd unless the show makes a point of showing how absurd they are. There were too many obstacles, danger, and lies for their relationship to last.
I think that has more to do with your personal cynicism than the concept itself.
I guess it's my personal cynicism that saw just how much danger Nick and Juliette needed to break up. Unlike Monroe and Rosalee, they weren't even honest with each other. They caused each other a lot more pain because they couldn't even tell each other the truth until too much shit had hit the fan. Juliette was literally on the brink of death before Nick mentioned being a Grimm and he still didn't tell her the truth. It was Rosalee who took the lead on enlightening her.
Juliette told Renard she was a Hexenbiest before she told Nick. It was only after the second violent home invasion in two weeks that she told him the truth.
As for my general outlook, I don't think it's cynical to believe that love isn't enough. There are other factors that come into play. My key words were obstacles, danger, and, lies. All of those things combined are too much to overcome despite the love.
In particular, shows like this constantly put others in danger in order to preserve the relationship. A show like OUAT featuring the Emma/Hook relationship shows just how absurd it really is.
As I recall, I always blamed both Nick and Juliette for their break-up. Like you said, he kept secrets from her, in the beginning and she did the same to him, in the end. The whole coma thing did not help either. We saw a side of Juliette that wasn't as loving and understanding as she was made to believe.
It entertaining about the chemistry discussion that is constantly rehashed on so many threads. This debate of who had better chemistry. Was it Nick/Juliette or Nick/Adalind.
To me, it is so obvious. Juliette refused his proposal. Why? She had issues of mistrust with Nick. Well that is proof of lack of chemistry. She kept secret from him about her Hex. Again, she mistrusted him about her safety, as a Hex, after living with the guy for almost 4 years. More proof of the lack of chemistry. She walks out on him, shags two of his nemesis and betrays Nick's mother that loved her. Not much chemistry in that beaker heating up on the bunsen burner, is there.
Noe take Nick/Adalind. They have a kid together under uncanny circumstances. They end up living together on the screen for just as long as Nick/Juliette did, if not more. Once you deduct the time Juliette spent un-involved with Nick, as a result of the coma awakening effects with much less mistrust of each other. Their relationship survived the BC insurgent and "The Z Guy" incursion. Add on, 20 years later they are still together as mom and dad. To me, that's chemistry.
Dicappatore, I couldn’t agree more in my opinion it’s pretty obvious Nick and Adalind had way better chemistry than him and Juliette and the writers certainly seemed to think so judging by who they had Nick end up with in the end.
Infact the writers knew who was the most popular of the two couples judging by thier reaction to Adalind wining in the yahoo poll they conducted as to who Nick should end up with, as they admit below the thougth Adalind would win even before getting the poll results but were surprised by how wide a margin she won by.
DAVID GREENWALT AND JIM KOUF RESPOND: Greenwalt knew this question would mobilize Grimmaniacs and both guessed that Adalind would win the popularity contest, but they didn’t think it would be by such a landslide. “
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/grimm-ask-the-fans-nick-adalind-juliette-170633469.html
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 03-02-2018
(03-01-2018, 06:59 PM)Hexenadler Wrote: Uh...yeah, pretty much. The show maintained N&J's relationship for three seasons, then promptly trashed it in just a few episodes, purely in favor of making "Nadalind" happen (and if you support THAT relationship, accusing "Nickette" of being dangerous is the peak of hypocrisy).
I know you're referring to a different issue here, Hexenadler, but your post gave me some food for thought. The foundation of Nick and Adalind's relationship *is* one of hypocrisy. Nick hated her. She hated him. She was never going to come crawling to him but for the fact the royals threw her out and she had no where to go. He would have never taken her into his private and personal house but did so because....why? Adalind offered and provided him with a spell that was never going to work on Juliette.
RE: Eve/Juliette - dicappatore - 03-02-2018
(03-02-2018, 04:01 AM)Henry of green Wrote:(03-01-2018, 09:07 PM)dicappatore Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(03-01-2018, 02:10 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:(03-01-2018, 07:26 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: It also doesn't help that I've never been a fan of "love conquers all" storylines. It just makes the characters look absurd unless the show makes a point of showing how absurd they are. There were too many obstacles, danger, and lies for their relationship to last.
I think that has more to do with your personal cynicism than the concept itself.
I guess it's my personal cynicism that saw just how much danger Nick and Juliette needed to break up. Unlike Monroe and Rosalee, they weren't even honest with each other. They caused each other a lot more pain because they couldn't even tell each other the truth until too much shit had hit the fan. Juliette was literally on the brink of death before Nick mentioned being a Grimm and he still didn't tell her the truth. It was Rosalee who took the lead on enlightening her.
Juliette told Renard she was a Hexenbiest before she told Nick. It was only after the second violent home invasion in two weeks that she told him the truth.
As for my general outlook, I don't think it's cynical to believe that love isn't enough. There are other factors that come into play. My key words were obstacles, danger, and, lies. All of those things combined are too much to overcome despite the love.
In particular, shows like this constantly put others in danger in order to preserve the relationship. A show like OUAT featuring the Emma/Hook relationship shows just how absurd it really is.
As I recall, I always blamed both Nick and Juliette for their break-up. Like you said, he kept secrets from her, in the beginning and she did the same to him, in the end. The whole coma thing did not help either. We saw a side of Juliette that wasn't as loving and understanding as she was made to believe.
It entertaining about the chemistry discussion that is constantly rehashed on so many threads. This debate of who had better chemistry. Was it Nick/Juliette or Nick/Adalind.
To me, it is so obvious. Juliette refused his proposal. Why? She had issues of mistrust with Nick. Well that is proof of lack of chemistry. She kept secret from him about her Hex. Again, she mistrusted him about her safety, as a Hex, after living with the guy for almost 4 years. More proof of the lack of chemistry. She walks out on him, shags two of his nemesis and betrays Nick's mother that loved her. Not much chemistry in that beaker heating up on the bunsen burner, is there.
Noe take Nick/Adalind. They have a kid together under uncanny circumstances. They end up living together on the screen for just as long as Nick/Juliette did, if not more. Once you deduct the time Juliette spent un-involved with Nick, as a result of the coma awakening effects with much less mistrust of each other. Their relationship survived the BC insurgent and "The Z Guy" incursion. Add on, 20 years later they are still together as mom and dad. To me, that's chemistry.
Dicappatore, I couldn’t agree more in my opinion it’s pretty obvious Nick and Adalind had way better chemistry than him and Juliette and the writers certainly seemed to think so judging by who they had Nick end up with in the end.
Infact the writers knew who was the most popular of the two couples judging by thier reaction to Adalind wining in the yahoo poll they conducted as to who Nick should end up with, as they admit below the thougth Adalind would win even before getting the poll results but were surprised by how wide a margin she won by.
DAVID GREENWALT AND JIM KOUF RESPOND: Greenwalt knew this question would mobilize Grimmaniacs and both guessed that Adalind would win the popularity contest, but they didn’t think it would be by such a landslide. “
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/grimm-ask-the-fans-nick-adalind-juliette-170633469.html
As usual Henry, amazing how some are unable to deal with the reality of what they saw on the screen. Thanks for that article. Very informative and it also confirmed one of my claims, on another post, that Wu character was created just for Wu when he did not get the part he audition for.
RE: Eve/Juliette - irukandji - 03-02-2018
(03-01-2018, 02:49 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: As for my general outlook, I don't think it's cynical to believe that love isn't enough. There are other factors that come into play. My key words were obstacles, danger, and, lies. All of those things combined are too much to overcome despite the love.
But if that's the case, why then would anyone be expected to buy into a Nick/Adalind love affair?
RE: Eve/Juliette - Robyn - 03-02-2018
The creative team valuing drama-driven action over character evolution and using Nick/Juliette as a readily available source of woe-is-me drama set the tone for their relationship. Juliette’s lack of reaction to the nearly fatal danger Nick’s deceit exposed her to was a ploy used to keep them together, but not strengthen the characters or the relationship. The creative team continuing this tactic for four and half seasons resulted in a hot mess, because the relationship was prevented from becoming stronger than the conflicts it faced.
Grimm isn’t likely an exception to how relationships are presented. Most shows probably focus on getting as much drama and conflict as they can from relationships rather than focusing on the actual relationships. But when these relationships get trapped in a endless loop of controversy they become absurd, and can cause viewers to dread rather than anticipate the couple’s next adventure.
I don’t want this discussion to turn into a Juliette vs. Adalind debate either, and only bring up Adalind to make a point about Nick. Nick should have known first hand that poor communication and lack of honesty were detrimental to a relationship. Yet, he approached issues with Adalind in the same way he and Juliette dealt with their problems. Instead of explaining he wasn’t yet able to fully trust her or return her feelings, he ignored meaningful discussion and took the same ‘wait and see’ approach as he & Juliette too often did.
I don’t make any assumption that G & K were making a statement about Nick. Rather, poor communication provided a breeding ground for controversy. And like the Nick/Juliette relationship, the Nick/Adalind relationship took a backseat to contrived drama. It doesn’t matter who Nick was paired with. The longer the relationship lasted, the more contrived controversy it would have to contend with - but not resolve.